The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Jay there is a demo of 'Ruth' here.

    Jeff the website has a lot of 'Steve Swallows' charts as well.

    Chris..

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    Oops, the piano part is written out in notation at the beginning of the tune, and as the chord changes, eg. F dim7, during the sax solo section. The advanced harmonization is really the product here of great voice leading. If Pat Metheny studied with this guy, I think I hear the influence in Pat's music. Beautiful melodies, and elegant harmonies. It is "simpler" than one might think. The brilliance is the composition.

    Jay
    Last edited by targuit; 01-22-2014 at 02:13 PM.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    My interpretation (and I also studied this tune in school with Ronnie), based on my minor interpretation :

    | Cm7 | % | Bbm6 | % |
    | Cm7 | Bbm6 | C Melodic Min | Ab melodic minor |
    | Fm6 | % | F melodic min | % |
    | F Melodic Min | % | F#min7 | G#min7 |
    | Bm7 | % | Am7 | Bm7 |
    | Dm7 | % | Bbm7 | % |
    | C melodic min | % | Bbm7 | % |
    | Bb melodic min | (8 bars total)

    I agree with baku that you could interpret the F#m7 - G#m7 as a ii and iii of E but that's now how most cats played over it.
    Jack,

    Would you have interpreted this tune the same if you had not studied it and was just handed the chart... (and had never heard the tune before)???

  5. #79

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    Thanks jzucker...

    It's always helpful to get the starting point, (analysis) close to the source. Personally, analysis is just that starting reference ,
    the starting point for creating relationships and development, (improve and interaction).

    The basic structural aspect of the tune is a somewhat a call and answer devices with almost sub-dom. function... as the means of creating motion. The harmonic movement. I IV and III IV type of relationships with use of pedals, modal interchange and modulations to somewhat camouflage. The melody sound more like notes pulled from target chordal or harmonic implications... hard to hear tonal implications without chords. Not bad, a very common method of melodic composition. The form and rhythmic use also help camouflage. Nice tune... pretty moody

    So I hear and see the pick up as V7alt. (C7alt) of F-,

    (A)
    l I- l % l (IV-) l % l .....Pedal F with F Dor to F Aeo. (sub-dom. type of movement), I would think you would wait to actually imply the IV- or Bb- until second statement...

    l I- l IV- l III7 l bIII- l ... The approach chords to the target of G, lots of possible analysis, again SD type of function.

    (B)
    l II- l % l bIII l % l I- l % l ... Pedal G, again camouflaged use of SD function, with use of MM modal interchange
    ...The basic III- IVmaj II- harmonic movement over G pedal with Modal Interchange use from MM and also hinting at typical Vsusb9 usage, a method of creating Dominant type of motion without actual Dom. function.(creates more tension).

    (C)
    The next block of composition is sequential like... standard break of existing compositional pattern. again using SD type of movement.
    You can spell as Min or sus chords, depends on root motion... still I to IV reference.

    (D)
    Back to the call and answer... Tonic and sub-Dom type of movement... spell as you choose over pedal etc...

    (E) an interlude type of block with camouflaged version of "B" ... transitional .

    I play music like this tune every week... this structural and harmonic usage is almost dated to be called "Modern". The structural elements of composition have become more developed and "chord patterns" or harmonic patterns have become jazz common practice... the use of modal interchange with MM influence and forms. The methods of creating function... the motor that creates harmonic movement have also developed into almost jazz common practice.

    Nice tune... it's a ballad right, fairly standard material. As always the most difficult aspect of playing "modern jazz is the notational practice... many don't know how to notate what they hear.

    Might be fun to hear how to improve over or through the tune...

  6. #80

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    Hey all. Thx for the info and links to 'Ruth'! I heard this tune and read through a chart a few years back, but did not know its origin. I always meant to research, but never took the time. I am hoping I have better luck with it now than I did back then, and will be checking out some of member's analysis for sure.

    Thx again!

  7. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    Oops, the piano part is written out in notation at the beginning of the tune, and as the chord changes, eg. F dim7, during the sax solo section. The advanced harmonization is really the product here of great voice leading. If Pat Metheny studied with this guy, I think I hear the influence in Pat's music. Beautiful melodies, and elegant harmonies. It is "simpler" than one might think. The brilliance is the composition.

    Jay
    Even if Pat didn't study with Ronnie, his music was a huge part of the jazz department. Every guitarist and pianist I knew were working on playing his tunes even if they didn't take his comp class.

  8. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by djangoles
    Jack,

    Would you have interpreted this tune the same if you had not studied it and was just handed the chart... (and had never heard the tune before)???
    I think so if I had had the recording as a reference. Perhaps not just from the chart, which I think suffers from the inability to completely represent this type of tune using '50s style chord symbols.

  9. #83

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    Does anybody know at what time, I mean year and date, this was composed. I'm just curious? Also, was it ever recorded and actually published, and if yes, what was the date?

  10. #84
    It was written in the early '70s and was published and recorded many times. There is information on his site.

    Incidentally, the bigband version is slightly different in the last 8 bars of the tune.

    Ron told me he changed the last 8 bars to make it a bit more "inside" and this seems to be the version that the big band is playing.

  11. #85

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    BTW, I noted a very odd thing earlier today. I went to check the YT link to the video I had posted for the performance of Ruth, and when the music started playing, it sounded very odd, as if it were a different video than the one I thought I had linked. Seems that the link on YT is somehow linked to the Sibelius score itself, and the score was playing back distorted. In fact, you could actually press the "stop" button on the image itself and it worked! Seems that the link is direct to the Sibelius site, perhaps Scorch or whatever it is called where Sibelius users can publish their scores publicly and for Scorch (or whatever it is called) users to access. (I am a Sibelius user, but don't utilize that publishing option.) I think it is a beautiful score. Alarmed at the odd distortion and chorusing effect, I closed the link and then reopened. The second time it played just fine. Odd.

    When you really listen and play the score, you find that the harmonies are not that unusual, and the chord progression is really based on the descending bass line and extensions. I mean, it isn't George Crumb.

    Jay

  12. #86

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    I checked out this Duke Pearson tune recently called "Is That So" (there's a recorded version off the Lee Morgan album "The Rajah" ) that I really like. Pretty modern vibe, chromatic motion, shifting tonalities, resolution to tonic maj chords shift a maj3rd and min3rd apart in separate instances, cool blend of modal as well as functional concepts. As for the adventurous I suppose one could sit around make lead sheets for some Ligeti compositions and see what happens.

    here's the lead sheet
    "Modern" Jazz Harmony-sou00253f-c-png
    Last edited by AleikhBaba; 01-22-2014 at 05:56 PM.

  13. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    When you really listen and play the score, you find that the harmonies are not that unusual, and the chord progression is really based on the descending bass line and extensions. I mean, it isn't George Crumb.

    Jay
    depends on what you mean by unusual. I can play over countdown and giantsteps at 1/4=300 and I struggle to play over ruth so to me it seems unusual.

  14. #88

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    sid jacobs devotes a section to polychords and slash chords towards the end of his book of jazz guitar lines & phrases. earlier in the book, considerable space is given to fourths and pentatonics. all very logical and musical. amazingly, he ties it in to the elegant bebop language demonstrated in the earlier chapters. great book.

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by randalljazz
    sid jacobs devotes a section to polychords and slash chords towards the end of his book of jazz guitar lines & phrases. earlier in the book, considerable space is given to fourths and pentatonics. all very logical and musical. amazingly, he ties it in to the elegant bebop language demonstrated in the earlier chapters. great book.
    +1 On the Jacobs book.

    It was one of the first jazz guitar books I bought. It was extremely useful in the beginning and shaped the way I see II-V-I's (the way he categorizes II-chord lines, V7-I resolution phrases, etc...), and it continues to be a reference for me all the time.

  16. #90

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    So maybe getting back to what modern harmony implies... or at least something to help organized what we want it to be.

    As jzucker mentioned we generally relate or use as our reference Ionian or Major/Minor Functional harmony. There are established guidelines for how notes and collections of notes react in a composition etc... That doesn't mean they always follow those guidelines, but those guidelines are the basic reference, they're implied even if they never actually happen.

    Function is the result of those guidelines, the motor that creates musical movement, that function whether played or implied is based on how and where those notes and intervals want to go in relationships.
    From these guidelines we have a tonal system.... which is the organization of Function.

    Generally... tonality refers to the relationships of notes, (the key), when we introduce Modality...we change the notes in which the relationships exixt. We're changing the tonal system... the function of the guidelines may or may not remain the same,( tonic, sub-dom. etc...), but the notes which create function change.

    We create new tonalities from different modalities....the next step to to use different note collections to create more tonal systems.... Melodic Minor, blue notes... use pedals or what ever one chooses to create the notes that create the function which creates the tonal system...

    The different tonal systems create different references.... for relationships, ( melodies, chord patterns, whatever...), to function within, different results.

    So some modern harmony generally is results from different tonal systems.

    There is also camouflage of existing harmonic movement. Use of Modal Interchange has opened the doors to changing the harmony to existing chord patterns... standards. Along with use of slash chords and other methods of creating harmony on top of root motion.

    I played a Chick tune last night at a gig, was called Morning Sprite, cool and very bright... different harmony over bass patterns... The charts in New Real Book II

    Anyway made me think of this thread... Most modern Harmonies generally still have somewhat basic references... more from the camouflage school.

    Here's chart of some typical slash chords... a older tune I still play.
    Attached Images Attached Images "Modern" Jazz Harmony-img016-jpg "Modern" Jazz Harmony-img017-jpg 
    Attached Files Attached Files

  17. #91

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    Reg - thank you for the analysis.

  18. #92

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    Speaking of George Crumb and "modern harmonization", try this suite of Christmas tunes. George in a more "melodic" mood. Jokes aside, this video of a talented pianist in Italy playing Crumbs' solo piano music is very fascinating in terms of harmonization. George takes you 'out there' a bit, but in a beautiful and thought provoking way. Music at its best is a kind of journey.



    Jay

  19. #93

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    GC is obviously great classically related composer, and he truly uses different harmonic organizational systems etc... but pretty far from Jazz.

    Does the performance of a tune create the modern or contemporary harmony or the organization behind the tune, performance... or are they one in the same.

    Getting into the performance... an improve technique I use when performing is use of arpeggio embellishments on string sets with pedal or target note(s) like references.

    Basically... I use four string sets, strings 1-4 and 2-5. You do need to know all your two octave position arpeggios of any harmony and anywhere on the fretboard...any position etc..

    simple example could be...

    Take two simple chords... Bb-7 going to A7, Bb dorian to A lyd b7 or Lydian Dom. How ever you want to spell, my target note could be the Eb of Bb-7, the nat. 11 which becomes D# ,the #11 of A7.

    Anyway I could use these mechanical fingerings, the two arpeggios as my reference and begin to create relationships, develop.

    This technique can have many layers of application. There are obviously many basic starting references. Every position of the implied note collection, scale, mode etc.. in all keys and positions... the technical BS, all the fingerings. Then the fun part... creating relationships... how you develop.

    This is great technique for playing through or over more contemporary harmony. Each arpeggio note collection basically becomes one note... here's notated example...

    My arpeggio embellish is based on strings 1-4, top four strings. Bb-7 to A7#11
    Attached Images Attached Images

  20. #94

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    Reg

    I see Abma7 to Gma7#5, extensions of the Bb-7 and A7.


    1. What would be the context for this type of line, several bars of Bb-7?

    2. What factors go into deciding the pair of chords?

    3. What would happen after these two measures? When you use this technique, do you typically loop the pair of arpeggios?

    4. What do you mean by the Eb/D# being the target note? You'll literally end the line on the note?

    Thanks...

  21. #95

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    4. What do you mean by the Eb/D# being the target note? You'll literally end the line on the note?
    A target note can be placed anywhere in the line beginning/end/middle and can be the highest or lowest note as well as an inner voice. Drawing on common tones, step wise motion and melodic leaps to craft (spontaneously) a simple melody or guide line. This then is used as a reference point from which to create melodies of greater complexity.

  22. #96

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    Hey Jake.. hope things are well,

    If it helps, make the Bb-7 a Bb-13... you could make the changes G#maj7 to A13#11, the concept of using the arpeggios would still be the same...but with different starting reference. Which would change the relationships and where the development might go. Not good, bad, right or wrong... but (personally) different.

    I don't see or hear as extensions... maybe when your in the early stages of teaching or explaining you might go through those stages of understanding... personally I believe you get to a point where the notes are what they are and you decide how you want them to work. You obviously need to be aware of historical reference etc... but your usage can determine, through implications, the reference. This is getting into a very complicated and subjective discussion, which I totally dig, but requires a lot of info and expertise. The technique can work with both references.

    The context is fairy open, but yes, lets say four bar phrase of two bars Bb- to two bars A7.

    The factors of deciding on what pair of chords... can be what ever one chooses. In the example I could be playing simple tune like "Gregory Is Here" by Horace... I know Different chords and different chord pattern, (B13#11 to C-11), but concept and application are the same. I use as a starting reference for my improve... the note collections, (the position arpeggios), they become like single notes which I use for creating melodic phrases... Like creating melody or line but using note groupings as the single notes. The creating relationships and developing can be the same... maybe a little more complicated at first.

    You could relate looping the chords to a call and answer type of relationship and develop from that reference.

    If you mean from a teaching or practicing aspect... yes looping would be great.

    My using Eb/D# as target note would mean... that could be the reference tonal target I use as my reference for creating relationships etc... in the example I mentioned simply because of characteristic implications of that note in reference to the chords.

    There's a whole lot of info here and takes a whole lot of technical and harmonic understanding before the technique become part of your voice... but it generally doesn't happen by chance.

    I could try and make vid of a few examples... seeing and hearing generally works best. I'll try and post something in the next couple of days. Maybe even take changes from "Ruth" jzucker brought up... the whole tune is blocks of call and answer over pedals.

  23. #97

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    Thank you Reg. I may have to give your post a few re-reads in a further attempt to truly grasp.

    For now I'll admit being a little lost, so bear with me:

    If the changes to the tune are in fact Bb-7 to A7, and you are playing the arpeggios in the pdf, is the concept simply picking two arpeggios from the respective modes that share a common tone, and you're thinking of that common tone as a target point?

    So for example if we picked a G note as the target, instead of Abma7 to Gma7#5 arpeggios, we could do Gm7b5 to Eminmaj7 ?

    Edit to add:
    another example, like in stablemates when the harmony is Dbma7 to C7#9 we could see it as Db lydian to C altered and use the arpeggios Abma7 to Dbminma7 with either Ab or C as target pitches? Is that it?
    Last edited by JakeAcci; 01-24-2014 at 01:16 PM.

  24. #98

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    Hey Jake... I'm sure part of the difficulty is my explanations etc...

    Think of methods to solo... development of a melody. The reference is the melody, depending on what relationships you choose in that melody to develop, (could be entire melody, short phrase, a simple interval), so depending on what reference you choose for the development... the results may be different.

    Don't get hung up on the basic arpeggio... for that Bb- chord, I could use same four string pattern starting on any scale degree as starting point. And what I usually play is an embellishment of the arpeggio, which could reflect rhythmic pattern, any modal interchange relationship, approach notes or even a simple chord pattern within the arpeggio figure.

    The point is I'm using that string set arpeggio pattern or embellishment of as a component of my improve. I can use as I see or hear fit.

    I can use the common tone as a target or not, again the point is I'm using a reference for constructive device to help organize my development, my improve. And Yes you could use the note G and G-7b5 to E-ma7. There are obviously many choices.

    Why I use these simple four string arpeggio patterns with embellishments is generally because of the ease in which one is able to impose organizational relationships and development within a very mechanical setting. The very nature of the note collection has strong tonal implications as references. As I said... they quickly become easy to hear and as easy to use as single notes.

    Your next example also could work... and that is the basic concept, access to complete note collections. The target(s) can be anything one chooses... not just common tones etc... the point is they're not fixed or stationary components, with only one use ...

    They're very Guitar friendly and yet still employ the arpeggio aspect that old school jazz players tend to harp on about so much.

    As I was saying above... the organization of the notes changes to fit how one chooses to create relationships and develop.Doesn't always need to be organized in 3rds etc... and very easily implies any contemporary harmony, as long as your aware of what that harmony or harmonic concept is.

    The concept is not that difficult... I would thing most would have more difficulty with the technical aspects... knowing your fretboard well enough to use.

  25. #99

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    Cool, thank you for the additional explanation. I think I get the idea now.

  26. #100

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    Reg, if I may ask, how do you finger those arpeggios, especially the 2nd one? Also, without embelishments, do you always play on 4 strings, or you sometimes play 2 highest notes on the same string, B the 2nd, in this example?
    Obviously, I'm thinking about rock 'n' rolling it a bit.
    Last edited by Vladan; 01-24-2014 at 07:38 PM.