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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    It works. Here you are, twice in the 1st bar :-)

    Yes, well, when it comes to "anything against anything", Hubbard be the man...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #202

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    You’ll keep dragging it back to functional changes and Reg will keep accusing me of Ionanism, which afaik is prohibited in the book of Leviticus. I think it also leads to chafing and poor eyesight.

    ...
    Hahaha, reminds me of that scene from League Of Gentlemen...

  4. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    You're becoming boorish and a bore, Christian.

    I think you should start writing an academic book so you can 'muse' to your heart's content. Or start lecturing or taking classes where they expect this sort of thing undiluted. Probably if you did it all day long you'd lose the urge.

    You're right, you're using the forum as a vehicle for your musings, as you call them. Emphasis on the word 'using'. The problem is you also end up basically using other people too, which is inappropriate. After all, 'the forum' is not a blackboard or piece of paper, it's people.

    Knowledge is good, the more the better, but when it becomes ego-centered something's gone wrong.
    Awww stop it, you'll hurt his feelings... As Christian alludes, there are 2 unwritten prerequisites for being on this forum :

    1/ Ionanism ,

    2/ Onanism .

  5. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    You're becoming boorish and a bore, Christian.

    I think you should start writing an academic book so you can 'muse' to your heart's content. Or start lecturing or taking classes where they expect this sort of thing undiluted. Probably if you did it all day long you'd lose the urge.

    You're right, you're using the forum as a vehicle for your musings, as you call them. Emphasis on the word 'using'. The problem is you also end up basically using other people too, which is inappropriate. After all, 'the forum' is not a blackboard or piece of paper, it's people.

    Knowledge is good, the more the better, but when it becomes ego-centered something's gone wrong.
    Sheesh. Christian can PLAY. Most enjoy hearing what he has to say about playing. Honestly, there's nothing keeping anyone from skimming or skipping ahead. Take what you like and leave the rest.

    As far as "going on and on" or finding enjoyment in hearing oneself talk, I don't think ANY of us three are at a loss for words,.... but it seems silly to be calling one of the other kettles black as it were.

    Sounds like you're having a bad day.

  6. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    Awww stop it, you'll hurt his feelings... As Christian alludes, there are 2 unwritten prerequisites for being on this forum :

    1/ Ionanism ,

    2/ Onanism .
    Onanism in public is, I believe, an offence :-)

    I think he's frustrated, with which I sympathise, but relieving himself here on the unsuspecting and uncomprehending is a bit pointless.
    .

  7. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post

    Sounds like you're having a bad day.
    Or I'm absolutely fine... and I'm dead right :-)

  8. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Or I'm absolutely fine... and I'm dead right :-)
    Nah, just the act of posting helps to cogently put your thoughts together so that very often by the end of it, you've kinda answered your own question .

    Even if this forum is only good for that (and it's not), then this kind of musing in public has surely helped us all, yourself included!

  9. #208

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    Hurt my feels-weelys ? I’m far more offended that prince thinks I give that much of a stuff about what people say on the internet.

    I’m going to flounce off for sixth months to show how much I don’t care.

  10. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    LOL... the point of using Ionian is that one way of expanding harmony is using modal concepts. Part of just saying major puts you in traditional functional harmony mode or blinders, or classical whatever you would like to call . Do you have a set of groves and all the standard music theory and harmony books. I can start giving references if that would like. Part of understanding harmony is being able to use it, expand, don't just copy, actually create using the concepts, yada yada.

    The other thing most master classes are... well just that... classes for students. I'm not trying to knock your knowledge, actually I enjoy all your posts... your playing... hell your a good lookin chap, anyway, back in the late 70's I remember scoring a film, was called The Masters, martial arts and ballet, weird film, the director and producer wanted very contemporary music, so I used very modern harmony.... I used modal harmony and jazz rhythmic feels... sections had actual choices of what to play. With film you just need targets, film targets and back then you actually went in studio and recorded with reference film for sessions ... so conducted etc... not much of a budget... my point is modern harmony... generally gets away from Major, (better) because if you don't you could be the only one hearing it aw modern.... shi*** I need to head off to another gig.

    I'll check in later and try and find some old scores with modern harmony.... I also have some very modern jazz tunes... from my younger days, when I was more into to that music, as well as was the audiences.
    That would be great. It’s always super helpful when you have a context for the theory bs, no?

  11. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Hurt my feels-weelys ? I’m far more offended that prince thinks I give that much of a stuff about what people say on the internet.

    I’m going to flounce off for sixth months to show how much I don’t care.
    Well I'm offended that you thought I thought you'd be offended!

    That's it, how do I delete my account?

  12. #211

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    Well I'm offended that you thought I thought you'd be offended!

    That's it, how do I delete my account?
    And who the hell is modding this dumpster fire?

  13. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I think he's frustrated, with which I sympathise, but relieving himself here on the unsuspecting and uncomprehending is a bit pointless.
    .
    Sorry for relieving myself on you.

  14. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Sorry for relieving myself on you.
    Never stand in Christian’s way.

  15. #214

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    Awww stop it, you'll hurt his feelings... As Christian alludes, there are 2 unwritten prerequisites for being on this forum :

    1/ Ionanism ,

    2/ Onanism .
    There is slso laziness, of body and mind. To people on this forum, you can quote, cut and paste random FAQ, help file, Wiki article, even hear-say and they will take it for wisdom, so wise and icomprehnssible they have to be told again and again and again ...

    Also , there was someone saying something about milkshake, but I am out of it, anyhow.

    Sent from My Blog Page
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
    v v v

  16. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    There is slso laziness, of body and mind. To people on this forum, you can quote, cut and paste random FAQ, help file, Wiki article, even hear-say and they will take it for wisdom, so wise and icomprehnssible they have to be told again and again and again ...

    Also , there was someone saying something about milkshake, but I am out of it, anyhow.

    Sent from My Blog Page
    I wish it were true. I actually take time to type that shit.

  17. #216

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan View Post
    There is slso laziness, of body and mind. To people on this forum, you can quote, cut and paste random FAQ, help file, Wiki article, even hear-say and they will take it for wisdom, so wise and icomprehnssible they have to be told again and again and again ...

    Also , there was someone saying something about milkshake, but I am out of it, anyhow.

    Sent from My Blog Page
    What's this about milkshakes?

    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  18. #217

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    What's this about milkshakes?

    Now THAT'S the modern harmony I think is at the crux of this conversation. Listen to the other variation on that saw-toothish riff. A true departure from the chains of dirty ionianism. Welcome to the future

  19. #218

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    LOL well not really, right... I V with relative Min. color, good color.

  20. #219

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    I-own-anism is somewhat rife in today’s popular culture, no?

  21. #220

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    Your crazy...

  22. #221

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    This thread will be 6 years old in a few weeks.

    Has harmony become even more modern since it started?

    I couldn't follow a lot of the discussion. Insufficient academic background, I guess.

    When I think of "modern" I think "Wayne Shorter, not tin pan alley". When I'm fighting my way through a Shorter tune the challenge, for me anyway, is not about which scale to play over which chord. Rather, it's how to construct a melody that suits the changes. Analysis helps, but when I see something like Dbmaj7 Ebm7 Em7 Cm7 Dm7 Bbm7 A7alt Bbm7, I only get so far.

  23. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    This thread will be 6 years old in a few weeks.

    Has harmony become even more modern since it started?

    I couldn't follow a lot of the discussion. Insufficient academic background, I guess.

    When I think of "modern" I think "Wayne Shorter, not tin pan alley". When I'm fighting my way through a Shorter tune the challenge, for me anyway, is not about which scale to play over which chord. Rather, it's how to construct a melody that suits the changes. Analysis helps, but when I see something like Dbmaj7 Ebm7 Em7 Cm7 Dm7 Bbm7 A7alt Bbm7, I only get so far.
    Depends from tune to tune.

    Speak no Evil... ok I need to remind myself on that I was looking at that tune, but study the way the melody moves there. Then listen to how Wayne handles it. Get away from the chart, the bass plus the melody defines the harmony here and it’s more logical than it looks.

    I’ve also often found with Wayne that the chord charts don’t help that much and are often inaccurate in any case... as miles put it Wayne is a real composer who writes bass lines and melodies, not chord charts...

    Like I say i can’t remember what exactly it was but I remember it was interesting.

    Rule 1 of Wayne - what does Wayne do?

    He has a way of getting elegantly though his own tunes, it’s usually the best way.

    Surprisingly many of his tunes are clever shit involving the blues. He often quotes or paraphrases the melody in his solos too.

    Of course you could spaff chord scales on them. But like you say, that’s not satisfying somehow.

  24. #223

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    Here’s a vid I did on deluge


  25. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Depends from tune to tune.

    Speak no Evil... ok I need to remind myself on that I was looking at that tune, but study the way the melody moves there. Then listen to how Wayne handles it. Get away from the chart, the bass plus the melody defines the harmony here and it’s more logical than it looks.

    I’ve also often found with Wayne that the chord charts don’t help that much and are often inaccurate in any case... as miles put it Wayne is a real composer who writes bass lines and melodies, not chord charts...

    Like I say i can’t remember what exactly it was but I remember it was interesting.

    Rule 1 of Wayne - what does Wayne do?

    He has a way of getting elegantly though his own tunes, it’s usually the best way.

    Surprisingly many of his tunes are clever shit involving the blues. He often quotes or paraphrases the melody in his solos too.

    Of course you could spaff chord scales on them. But like you say, that’s not satisfying somehow.
    My analysis is that a lot of it is in Ab tonal center.

    When he gets to the two chords per bar section, the solos generally treat it like a 3 6 2 5. So that Em7 Cm7 Dm7 Bbm7 is played becomes, more or less, Em7 Eb6 Dm7 Db6. Then, for the Aalt Bbm7, I think Bbmelminor. What I hear on the recording is a lick and a lick a step lower, more or less.

    After that, it's a more obvious 3 6 2 5. The next chord has the root of the I in that 3 6 2 5 but it's Ebmaj7#9#11. Perhaps the kindest thing I can say about it is that it's playable on guitar. Then, we're back to Abmaj.

    So, the analysis doesn't have to go into outer space to find new theory, but you have to be flexible about the specifics of the harmony.

    As an aside, I tend not to focus on finding the exact scale where every note fits the harmony perfectly. If I'm going to be thinking that way at all, I just need to get close. I'm going to be trying to sing melody to myself anyway -- and I can adjust the truly rotten notes by a half step, on the fly.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 11-25-2019 at 03:33 PM.

  26. #225

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    Shorter composed with blocks of music. Takes a groove, OK bass line with implied harmony, or even with existing harmony. Usually pretty straight... then adds melody. ( or reverse, start with melody etc... ). Then expands or changes the chords, using standard BS. He camouflages the simple harmony...That's generally why when you perform his tunes... you always have a very simple approach if you choose, and can have a few harmonic and melodic ideas going on at same time... Yea... lots of blues, melodic minor and modal interchange.

    So yea... its a minor blues, or at least implied. What might have been the starting reference or tune.
    Last edited by Reg; 11-25-2019 at 12:28 PM.

  27. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    My analysis is that a lot of it is in Ab tonal center.

    When he gets to the two chords per bar section, the solos generally treat it like a 3 6 2 5. So that Em7 Cm7 Dm7 Bbm7 is played becomes, more or less, Em7 Eb6 Dm7 Db6. Then, for the Aalt Bbm7, I think Bbmelminor. What I hear on the recording is a lick and a lick a step lower, more or less.

    After that, it's a more obvious 3 6 2 5. The next chord has the root of the I in that 3 6 2 6 but it's Ebmaj7#9#11. Perhaps the kindest thing I can say about it is that it's playable on guitar. Then, we're back to Abmaj. b

    So, the analysis doesn't have to go into outer space to find new theory, but you have to be flexible about the specifics of the harmony.

    As an aside, I tend not to focus on finding the exact scale where every note fits the harmony perfectly. If I'm going to be thinking that way at all, I just need to get close. I'm going to be trying to sing melody to myself anyway -- and I can adjust the truly rotten notes by a half step, on the fly.
    Yes this is true. But you are still thinking about half the music I think?

    I looked at it today...

    He gives you the path in the melody. The easiest way to play the A. A template.

    Wayne shorter has a melodic gift. I don’t actually think is a harmonic improviser at all, at least not in the same as Herbie is. He doesn’t build chords up. The harmony is emergent from the melody + bass and the reason why the chords sound connected and not random. Miles said that of him.

    Real book charts and particularly the hated iReal do a very bad job of communicating this. The chord symbols do not quite reflect what is going on.

    I’ll give it to you

    Cm7 on Cm7 Dbmaj7(#11) - C minor blues etc

    The Em7 Cm7 Dm7 Bbm7 section with the melody notes should be thought of as fully extended m11ths. With the bass and melody alone, we have.

    D/E Bb/C C/D Ab/Bb

    Or more helpfully perhaps we could also say

    D/E Dm/C C/D Cm/Bb

    Or

    D Dm C Cm triads. Leave the bass something to do. They won’t be doing anything else on this tune lol.

    The main movement is from F#-F-E-Eb. It’s a line cliche. Pretty old school when you look at it that way.

    If you preserve that line when you play over the progression it will serve to connect the chords. It’s not the only way to do it, but it’s useful base. You won’t be scrambling around. And you won’t have to play too many notes to navigate the tune.

    Now listen to the solo. What does Wayne do?
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-25-2019 at 03:35 PM.

  28. #227

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    I forgot the A7b5.... that’s where you end up.

    It’s not necessary to spell out that and the Bbm11 too much, but you can have fun working that pedal tone. Herbie seems to move between thinking of that as an A altered thing and a ii v Bbm Eb7...

    From there on you can roll out more non chord tones, but it’s striking Hubbard uses a similar approach. Essentially they are paraphrasing the melodies a type of improvisation a 1920s player would have understood. I think sometimes as improvisers we feel the pressure to make up something totally new rather than working with the melodic material we have. I’m not sure where this expectation comes from...

    Which of course is not to say you can’t make up something new. But then i find the important thing on any of these tough tunes is to have something we can just play that’s nice and simple and build up from there.

    Of the solos Herbie’s is what we might think as the most chord scalic. He still makes a lot out of that feature in the melody though... the melody still in there.
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-25-2019 at 03:36 PM.

  29. #228

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I forgot the A7b5.... that’s where you end up.

    It’s not necessary to spell out that and the Bbm11 too much, but you can have fun working that pedal tone. Herbie seems to move between thinking of that as an A altered thing and a ii v Bbm Eb7...


    Of the solos Herbie’s is what we might think as the most chord scalic. He still makes a lot out of that feature in the melody though... the melody still in there.
    With regard to Em7 Cm7 Dm7 Bbm7 ...

    I hear this as a variation of a 3 6 2 5. The Cm7 takes the place of an A7 and the Bbm7 takes the place of a G7.

    It has strong structure, down two, up one, down two.

    Why does the harmony work? Because Cm7 is C Eb G Bb. If there was an A in the bass, those notes would be the b7, #9, #11 and b9.
    Same argument for the Dm7.

    This is, in effect, Em7 A7alt Dm7 G7alt, give or take a b13.

    And, when I listen to the solos, that's what I hear in the logic of their phrases.

    The part I think of as Ab tonal center might reasonably be considered C phrygian. Not quite a minor blues to my ear, but I understand what Reg meant, I think.

    A7#11 is A C# D# G.
    Bbm7 is Bb Db F Ab.

    They don't look that much alike, but A7alt comes out of Bbmelmin. I'll have to go back and listen to what they do over that change.



  30. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    With regard to Em7 Cm7 Dm7 Bbm7 ...

    I hear this as a variation of a 3 6 2 5. The Cm7 takes the place of an A7 and the Bbm7 takes the place of a G7.

    It has strong structure, down two, up one, down two.

    Why does the harmony work? Because Cm7 is C Eb G Bb. If there was an A in the bass, those notes would be the b7, #9, #11 and b9.
    Same argument for the Dm7.

    This is, in effect, Em7 A7alt Dm7 G7alt, give or take a b13.

    And, when I listen to the solos, that's what I hear in the logic of their phrases.

    The part I think of as Ab tonal center might reasonably be considered C phrygian. Not quite a minor blues to my ear, but I understand what Reg meant, I think.

    A7#11 is A C# D# G.
    Bbm7 is Bb Db F Ab.

    They don't look that much alike, but A7alt comes out of Bbmelmin. I'll have to go back and listen to what they do over that change.


    Did you understand my post? I don’t know how well I explained it. I’ll do a video when I have time. It’s actually pretty simple and easy to play this tune when you grasp this triadic background.

    Often with fast non functional changes players take a simple route through it and then stretch on the more modal sections on Cm/Db and A7b5 Bbm7.... (Herbie treats the Cm as an open vamp and goes out on it later in his solo. He makes the most of the Cm Db change of the soloists. I think he simplifies the vamp at the end a little?

    your 3 6 2 5 thing sort of works theoretically, id need to try it to see if my bop lines would work there....

    An analogous situation is Song for Bilbao from Tales of the Hudson. Nobody would say that these players aren’t some of the best of the era, but they all circumvent the difficulty by employing a strategy. Quoting the melody, playing the chords and playing variations on the melody are all perfectly reasonable ways to do it. Any changes playing should probably be heavily focused on the simplest chord tones. Think Giant Steps.

    Rick seemed to think it had something do with them being major chords iirc, but tbh I often hear
    these kinds of strategies on fast hard changes.



    Stablemates is another one....
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-25-2019 at 07:57 PM.

  31. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Did you understand my post? I don’t know how well I explained it. I’ll do a video when I have time. It’s actually pretty simple and easy to play this tune.
    I may have understood it. I played through it with the chords you suggested. Sounded good. Still sounds like a 3 6 2 5.

    In this view, for better or worse, you appreciate in some inchoate way that it's a 3 6 2 5 and use the usual techniques for navigating a 3 6 2 5. If you nail the Em7 and the Dm7, whatever melody you come up with is probably going to work. It may sound inside-outside-inside-outside, depending on what you come up with. If you choose to think of the second chord as A7alt (played over Cm7) you're probably going to hit some of the chord tones of Cm7 anyway C Eb G Bb vs A C# Eb F G Ab Bb C. And, that's what I thought I was hearing on the recording.

    This short passage can be analyzed different ways. Which is preferable depends, I should think, a great deal on the player's overall approach to soloing.

  32. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    I may have understood it. I played through it with the chords you suggested. Sounded good. Still sounds like a 3 6 2 5.

    In this view, for better or worse, you appreciate in some inchoate way that it's a 3 6 2 5 and use the usual techniques for navigating a 3 6 2 5. If you nail the Em7 and the Dm7, whatever melody you come up with is probably going to work. It may sound inside-outside-inside-outside, depending on what you come up with. If you choose to think of the second chord as A7alt (played over Cm7) you're probably going to hit some of the chord tones of Cm7 anyway C Eb G Bb vs A C# Eb F G Ab Bb C. And, that's what I thought I was hearing on the recording.

    This short passage can be analyzed different ways. Which is preferable depends, I should think, a great deal on the player's overall approach to soloing.
    Does this approach help you solo on the tune? I’m unlikely to pick up a guitar today so I can’t try it for myself unfortunately. My feeling is that it would sound cool but might not cut to the core of that progression. Em9 A7b13 Dm9 G7b13 is better voice leading in this context.

    Theoretically I can see that the Wayne progression would make a nice sub for a turnaround. I would tend to see it more as Bm7 E7susb9 Am7 D7susb9

    Minor over dominant is a common sub for altered dominant though. Your thing would probably work. I’d need to try it, but tbh most things work if they are logical and resolve. Relating it to something familiar might help in the short term but might not help with the Wayne tunes that diverge further from functional tonality.

    Again I think my approach (or rather Jordan/Stephon Harris’s) really cuts through the bullshit.

    You can come up with systems that define 7 or more notes over each chord, but in practice this can be very clunky to use. It’s too much information all at once.

    It’s striking that the players on the recording really don’t make a meal of it. Another way of putting it is it’s interesting to me what they leave out of each cst pitch set. I mean in one sense it’s Dorian over each m7. Urgh.

    Very rarely am I in the position of wanting to deal with more that three or four notes over each chord in a fast non functional changes like this. ‘Probably’ hitting chord tones is not what I want, especially of course in a trio. I want to be able to outline the progression clearly and without fuss bearing in mind each chord sticks around for no more than 4 beats. And above all I want to play something rhythmically compelling and melodic. When I am comping I want clear voice leading.

    And as with say, Coltrane changes. Unlike a typical Tin Pan Alley standard where we can reharm and so on, the harmonic interest is kind of baked into the tune. Therefore it is not up to the soloist to create harmonic interest and it’s more important to play melodically and rhythmically to make these unusual fast written changes sound good. The ears need something to hang onto. All my transcriptions so far seem to bear this out.

    It makes sense right, Wayne is not as familiar as Blue Moon.... we don’t need to run variations on something unfamiliar. Well maybe for other jazz geeks.

    That’s an inverse approach. Trane started this right? So for instance we would use a Coltrane sub on a ii v I but the opposite can sound sort of ok, but doesn’t get to the heart of it.

    1 2 3 5 is often the approach used for Trane changes. Again in the Beato vid it’s notable how simple and how organised the examples sound. It’s just chord tones 90% of the time.

    *However* - in this case the melody is on the extensions not on the base triads as it is in Giant Steps and Bilbao. And these US melody notes are the ones they go for.

    So, I think everything you say is true, but I don’t think it gets to the essential economy of how the horn players solo on this tune. A lot of the creativity is in the rhythmic variations. Again if you spend any time at all listening to jazz from the pre war era this approach will be familiar. Think Johnny Hodges (Trane’s favourite)

    I’ll dig a little more into the exact note choices that the guys play on this progression but I take it you can hear the tunes melody over each of those sections in the solos?

    Anyway, I bring it up because it shows how modern harmony is not just one unified approach in a book. This way of thinking may not work for everything. (Although in my experience melodic triads are a very versatile and powerful tool that allow you to play basically any type of harmonic music.) I think to go, harmony until 1960 then modal/cst to the present day is a necessary simplification to teach basic ‘getting though the gig skills’ to 19 year olds.

    But I think ‘it’s the melody stupid’ is a great practical skill for young musicians that always works and requires no flipping pseudo Greek. Of course it requires you to actually know the tune and not be reading off your phone.

    Let’s do another Wayne tune!
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-26-2019 at 05:47 AM.

  33. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Let’s do another Wayne tune!
    By all means. I need the practice on those tunes.

    What I thought I heard was navigation through 3 6 2 5 with melodic devices. I didn't try to figure out the notes. The thought about chord tones on the Em7 and Dm7 and random **** in between was my idea. Joking about random. Rather, any melodic idea that is anchored in the chord tones and maybe consonant extensions of the Em7 and Dm7. At least, that's what occurs to me while I'm typing this. I don't know if that's how I'd approach the tune in a band context.

    If something like that was slow enough, I'd figure I could nail each chord, if I had to, meaning I'd try to make up a melody out of chord tones and additional notes picked by ear.

    If the tune was really fast, I'd be looking for shortcuts. First thing I might try is playing the entire thing in Cmaj. Usually, that's a joke, but in this case it might actually work. Might not want to lean on E against Cm7, or D against Bbm7 but at a fast enough tempo it might work.

    It may be that a high-moderate tempo would be hardest. Too fast to make nailing each chord comfortably but slow enough that clams will be heard.

    How about Ana Maria?

  34. #233

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    By all means. I need the practice on those tunes.

    What I thought I heard was navigation through 3 6 2 5 with melodic devices. I didn't try to figure out the notes. The thought about chord tones on the Em7 and Dm7 and random **** in between was my idea. Joking about random. Rather, any melodic idea that is anchored in the chord tones and maybe consonant extensions of the Em7 and Dm7. At least, that's what occurs to me while I'm typing this. I don't know if that's how I'd approach the tune in a band context.

    If something like that was slow enough, I'd figure I could nail each chord, if I had to, meaning I'd try to make up a melody out of chord tones and additional notes picked by ear.

    If the tune was really fast, I'd be looking for shortcuts. First thing I might try is playing the entire thing in Cmaj. Usually, that's a joke, but in this case it might actually work. Might not want to lean on E against Cm7, or D against Bbm7 but at a fast enough tempo it might work.

    It may be that a high-moderate tempo would be hardest. Too fast to make nailing each chord comfortably but slow enough that clams will be heard.

    How about Ana Maria?
    Just playing Em7 and Dm7 might be necessary if in a duo. I think sus chords would be better though, slash chord voicings, like the ones I wrote above .

    C blues would work pretty well if you were using your ears.

    You know horns are hustlers and guitars (and pianos) are geeks. They play poker while we think it’s chess.... As a long serving nerd I find the hustling mentality more interesting and mysterious....

    OK Wayne’s a total nerd. But you get the idea?

    Ana Maria. Ok I don’t know that one, so will have to wait a couple of days. But I’m up for it!
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-26-2019 at 06:05 AM.

  35. #234

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    Here’s a thing I did about Beatrice but didn’t publish


  36. #235

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    Also if it helps, my terms

    Cm11 = chord up
    C Dorian = scale, 13 is avoid note
    Bb on Cm7 = top down (melody down)

    Three ways of thinking about the same cst pitch set. The difference is emphasis.

    The former relates to chord symbols, bass and basic voicings obviously... but we can get stuck down there as improvisers. But we all
    have to learn it.

    The middle often leads to sophomore noodling, but with sufficiently developed patterns, language and intervalloc approaches can be made to sound good.

    The latter relates to both what I think of as traditional chord subs and more advanced harmony so on and to me is more directly useful as a melodic improviser.

  37. #236

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    Maybe ESP... here's a vid I made for JGF 10 years ago... funny to hear old BS. I'm pretty sure I just made a quick backing track... Hip Hop... probable from playing a gig the night before. Anyway... I rarely rehearse for vids.... just make as quick as I can. On edge, loose, train wreck at any moment kind of thing. keep improve simple... repeat melodic material and create shapes with form.

    His tunes do open the modal and pentatonic doors... I'm In for all WS tunes...

  38. #237

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    Here's why Ethan Iverson thinks 1964 was an important year for Modern Jazz:

    A Look Back at 1964, a Pivotal Year in the Career of the Jazz Composer Wayne Shorter | The New Yorker

  39. #238

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    A list of Shorter Tunes... that I cover, or at least have transcribed and arranged


    Black Nile... with Lee Morgan 1964 Still played to much
    Wild Flower... with freddie, Still play this tune, arranged a big band version... just to moody
    Iris... with Miles 1965, fun ballad....
    Prince of Darkness.... usually play as up swing, burnin, great solo tune
    El Gaucho.... still fun tune, started playin back in late 60's
    Lester Left Town.... cool arranged tune, don't play that much anymore
    Maria Antoinette and Angola.... still fun, old school
    Speak no Evil
    Yes and No and
    Night Dreamer...cool 3/4
    the later stuff like,
    The Three Maria's were fun back in the 80's... those days are gone cool at bigger venues


    His tunes aren't that complicated... really, play them in real time. When you get past "expanding" functional harmony, with modal subs and think of many of his chord progressions as "Chord Patterns". Maybe... like a Pedal with chords.... Chord patterns become basically One functional reference.... Go through 15 or 20 of his tunes and you'll start to see and hear his most used chord patterns... or moving chords over a pedal.

    We could play and make analysis of Ana Maria.... it's just such a slow moving somewhat moody tune... the use of a Bossa is almost an oxymoron... play the melody forever, but why not. Spending a lot of time on one tune... misses a lot of what playing Shorter tunes is... (personal op). Modern harmony ... if you struggle getting through Shorter tunes, which are still pretty functional... expanded functional.... Maybe take a simple tune and make it harmonically modern.... even a simple Monk tune, Well You Needn't.... and try and use modern harmonic concepts.... or maybe some of Shorter's harmonic tricks of camouflaging function. Something to think about over the American excuse to take a holiday. (don't look at the real story).

  40. #239

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    cool read prince... thanks

  41. #240

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  42. #241

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    Since I'm still not sure exactly what "modern harmonic concepts" are, I'd love to see an example of a standard reharmonized accordingly.

    Or maybe just a list of a few tunes that fit that description.

    My impression is that some things by Andre Mehmari or maybe Hermeto Pascoal, which have no clear feeling of key, fit this description, but I'm not sure. I googled it and watched a video without really figuring it out beyond the idea that it's more ambiguous in terms of resolution than functional harmony.

  43. #242

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    In regards to analysis of Wayne Shorters tunes and what was played with Miles 2nd quintet, one must take into consideration the whole scene during that time was quite influenced by what Ornette and similar guys had been doing a few years earlier.
    Herbie stopped playing chords allowing for much more harmonic freedom etc, being more concerned about melodies rather than the underlying chords, things Ornette had been doing since the late 50's (not using any chord instrument at all).

    So when playing Shorter tunes from that period, Ron of course was also influenced by this, and had lots of freedom to play whatever he liked (even on the tunes that had fixed chords during solos like most of Shorters tunes had).

    It was all about exploring, challenging old conventions, energy, grabbing the moment, and just playing their asses off!

    Sometimes people miss the forest (the whole macro picture) for the trees.

    This is also partly why the real book chord analysis is many times wrong.

    To summarize, if there is a note that doesn't really make sense, or make the chord progression/melody very strange, not corresponding to the conventional harmony, it might as well just be Ron, Wayne, Miles, or Herbie grabbing a note that felt good at that particular moment. Or might even be a mistake.
    Last edited by greveost; 11-27-2019 at 07:50 PM.
    Testing a Gibson ES335 vs Harley Benton HB 35 (very inexpensive semi hollow body guitar)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fGMIs1wNEA&t=185s

    Jamming the Jazz standard All the things you are
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUzDEct613g&t=3s

    Playing a solo over my friends tune Cookies and Cream
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJHqt_lpyKM

  44. #243

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    Is this generally considered "modern harmony"?



  45. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by greveost View Post
    In regards to analysis of Wayne Shorters tunes and what was played with Miles 2nd quintet, one must take into consideration the whole scene during that time was quite influenced by what Ornette and similar guys had been doing a few years earlier.
    Herbie stopped playing chords allowing for much more harmonic freedom etc, being more concerned about melodies rather than the underlying chords, things Ornette had been doing since the late 50's (not using any chord instrument at all).

    So when playing Shorter tunes from that period, Ron of course was also influenced by this, and had lots of freedom to play whatever he liked (even on the tunes that had fixed chords during solos like most of Shorters tunes had).

    It was all about exploring, challenging old conventions, energy, grabbing the moment, and just playing their asses off!

    Sometimes people miss the forest (the whole macro picture) for the trees.

    This is also partly why the real book chord analysis is many times wrong.

    To summarize, if there is a note that doesn't really make sense, or make the chord progression/melody very strange, not corresponding to the conventional harmony, it might as well just be Ron, Wayne, Miles, or Herbie grabbing a note that felt good at that particular moment. Or might even be a mistake.
    I think we are talking more about Wayne’s solo stuff? Seems more conventional, but good points.

  46. #245

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I think we are talking more about Wayne’s solo stuff? Seems more conventional, but good points.
    Yeah, I agree, Waynes solo stuff during that period was approached more conventional in general.

    And just to clarify, even with Miles, they rarely left the harmonic vehicle completely, like for example Ornette, but they had a very free/liberal, pragmatic, and spontaneus approach to the harmony.

    And even with the arrangements as such.

    For example, with the example above Nefertiti, they did not plan ahead to not take any solos on that tune, it was just that Tony just kept doing what he was doing, and the rest just followed and no one wanted to take a solo, if I remember correctly, and that's how it turned out on the album.
    Testing a Gibson ES335 vs Harley Benton HB 35 (very inexpensive semi hollow body guitar)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fGMIs1wNEA&t=185s

    Jamming the Jazz standard All the things you are
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUzDEct613g&t=3s

    Playing a solo over my friends tune Cookies and Cream
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJHqt_lpyKM

  47. #246

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    Yeah I think that’s true. What’s attractive about Wayne’s solo albums of the same period is how much they cleave to that heavy swing/blues blue note thing while having all the odd changes and elusive melodies.

    However it’s interesting that taking about ‘modern jazz’ (50+ year old music) always focusses on harmony. The mention of Ornette might remind us that the main innovations of jazz of this era were actually coming from a sensibility of greater melodic and rhythmic freedom and a backgrounding of harmony. Conrad Cork makes the argument that jazz was always moving towards greater freedom.

    Coltrane did it all, but his tunes of this era were getting more and more vamp based and then obviously free towards the end of the decade.

    And then the freeish vamp thing became preeminent in fusion and jazz rock via Miles... until everyone got sick of that and Metheny started writing songs with rock/pop and modal influenced harmony... (super simplified history I know)

    Now of course we take it as read that progress in jazz consists of more and more complicated chords and chord progressions being introduced into jazz.

    I think there’s a few reasons for this. The role of academic jazz courses sure. Gary Burton was making music a certain way for instance, and his pivotal role influenced the teaching fundamentally.

    Also what can be well taught in an environment basically designed for Western European music is also self selecting.

    Even copyright law itself had a role to play. We can’t talk about melodies in instructional books, but we can talk about chords, scales and solos. I can’t monetise my channel for instance. But I want to talk about melodies. And as these take over (along with apps like iReal) more and more people will think jazz = the study of chord symbols. Even contact with educators irl may nor do much to dispel that.

  48. #247

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    Ok I’m looking at Ana Maria. Do we need to solo on the form of this tune? Neither Kurt nor Wayne appear to do this.

    Or are you interested as to what makes the chords work?

  49. #248

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Ok I’m looking at Ana Maria. Do we need to solo on the form of this tune? Neither Kurt nor Wayne appear to do this.

    Or are you interested as to what makes the chords work?
    Just to be clear, I'm coming at Wayne Shorter's music as a beginner. A friend calls Ana Maria at jams and recorded the tune, soloing on the entire form. That's how I got interested in the tune. I hadn't listened to Wayne that much, but his version seems to solo on a phrygian vamp. The melody fits beautifully over the harmony and the harmony flows with nothing jagged or jarring. Great tune. But, I'm guessing there are ways to understand the changes that are eluding me.

  50. #249

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    Thank you for starting this thread. Apart from KB, a bit of GG Wes Herb, it is the current guys that I really love to listen to especially Jonathan Kreisberg. It is fascinating that to my ears as different his version of Autumn in New York it to KB's somehow they sound similar (maybe cause it is the same song der!!). His I think it is 5/4 time version of Summertime is just a ripper, I cannot think of another version that sounds like that such a dark heavy and groovy intro, the guys is so under appreciated in my opinion. No actually he is under appreciated full stop.

    Here is an interesting analysis of his playing on Autumn in New York

    “When you’re creating your own ...., man, even the sky ain’t the limit.”
    Miles Davis

  51. #250

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Just to be clear, I'm coming at Wayne Shorter's music as a beginner. A friend calls Ana Maria at jams and recorded the tune, soloing on the entire form. That's how I got interested in the tune. I hadn't listened to Wayne that much, but his version seems to solo on a phrygian vamp. The melody fits beautifully over the harmony and the harmony flows with nothing jagged or jarring. Great tune. But, I'm guessing there are ways to understand the changes that are eluding me.
    Yeah maybe. The melody is very motivic on this one which also gives a sense of coherence to the progression, but I’m sure there’s more going on.

    I’ll take a closer look if I get time.