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  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Subdominant is dominant with the teeth out. The teeth in this case is the leading note of the key.

    ....
    To pull the discussion back to Functional Harmony for a sec, the IV chord for me sometimes can be Tonic sounding, Dominant sounding, or both (when the IV appears in Autumn Leaves?). When the IV starts Just Friends, there's no way you wanna treat it as Dominant, it clearly is more related to the Tonic in that instance. That's why I sometimes say the IV is "Ambitonic"

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  3. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    To pull the discussion back to Functional Harmony for a sec, the IV chord for me sometimes can be Tonic sounding, Dominant sounding, or both (when the IV appears in Autumn Leaves?). When the IV starts Just Friends, there's no way you wanna treat it as Dominant, it clearly is more related to the Tonic in that instance. That's why I sometimes say the IV is "Ambitonic"
    Yes, the IV is kind of it’s own thing. Actually I’ve never tried dominant on Just friends.... that prog Cmaj7 Cm(maj7) sounds great on Am7 D7, as rag among others have pointed out, but how about the other way? I’ve had some success with this provided D7 is altered.....

    but as reg points out a lot of my dominant language is actually subdominant stuff .... so I suspect I’m thinking dominant scale but targeting the hell out of the b7 and 2 of 5 subs (Fmajor and Dm on G7 for instance) found within the dominant scale.... so there’s probably less difference than my posts suggest.

    The IV is really really useful. And it all comes back to degree 4 of the scale course....

    The main difference is playing INTO chords really... I can play F#maj7–>C and it will work as a resolution... anything is possible.

    I’m not sure if you mean over Just Friends you wanna play the tonic, G on C or treat C as a separate key. Either works.

  4. #153

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    only tonic and dominant
    So what happens to the subdominant then? Does that become tonic or dominant? And why isn't only two chords going to sound boring?

  5. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post

    I’m not sure if you mean over Just Friends you wanna play the tonic, G on C or treat C as a separate key. Either works.
    I mean Tonic G over C. Treating the first chord as C tonic doesn't work for me, I can't hear a passing diatonic F nat note there without shrieking...
    In some past thread there was someone who described the IVmaj7 (when occuring after the Imaj7) as an "overrun", I dig it.
    However, given that you seem to often hear IV as Dom sans teeth, what would you suggest as the clearest example where, if using T/D reduction approach to improv, the IV sounds right as D but wrong as T ?

  6. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    So what happens to the subdominant then? Does that become tonic or dominant? And why isn't only two chords going to sound boring?
    Didn't Christian address this in #148?

    At any rate, you don't change the chords, just what you play over the top. Dividing things into T vs D never gets boring! OTOH, spelling out every chord (even the subdominant ones) in every tune does sound boring - no rub ! For my ears anyway... Must say though, that there have been times where NOT addressing the ii separately in a ii- V (as opposed to treating it as V) doesn't sound quite right, but 95% of the time it does... YMMV

  7. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    I mean Tonic G over C. Treating the first chord as C tonic doesn't work for me, I can't hear a passing diatonic F nat note there without shrieking...
    In some past thread there was someone who described the IVmaj7 (when occuring after the Imaj7) as an "overrun", I dig it.
    However, given that you seem to often hear IV as Dom sans teeth, what would you suggest as the clearest example where, if using T/D reduction approach to improv, the IV sounds right as D but wrong as T ?
    Im not sure if I understand the question, because you seem to mean playing I on IV.

    So you can play I on IV and it sounds grand

    But IV on I demands resolution to I.

    In the case of Autumn leaves we are heading to the subdominant of the next tonal area (relative minor) anyway. You can hear Eb major as a subdominant in Gm as well as in Bb, so it’s kind of a bridging chord? It’s not in the original changes anyway. Customary to add a IV in when going to VII....

    So maybe -there’s a hierarchy

    I always works
    IV works on IV and V
    V works on V

    But I’m sure this is a simplification

  8. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Im not sure if I understand the question, because you seem to mean playing I on IV.

    So you can play I on IV and it sounds grand

    But IV on I demands resolution to I

    In the case of Autumn leaves we are heading to the subdominant of the next tonal area (relative minor) anyway. You can hear Eb major as a subdominant in Gm as well as in Bb, so it’s kind of a bridging chord? It’s not in the original changes anyway. Customary to add a IV in when going to VII
    What I meant was playing V on IV. Can you think of an example where that works, but I on IV doesn't?

  9. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    What I meant was playing V on IV. Can you think of an example where that works, but I on IV doesn't?
    Well the problem/key feature is the 4th degree. The note not found in the harmonic series. That’s always going to demand resolution, either back to 1 or by 4 becoming the new root.

    Anyway, I can’t think of an example. I on IV always sounds great.

  10. #159

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    BTW, jzucker would probably be rolling his eyes to see that 6 years on, this thread has been reduced to a very basic discussion on very Functional Harmony ! (Sorry Jack)...

  11. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    ...

    Anyway, I can’t think of an example. ...
    Aha! Gotcha!

  12. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    Didn't Christian address this in #148?
    He did. Sorry, didn't see it. Previous page.

    At any rate, you don't change the chords, just what you play over the top.
    That's what I meant.

    Dividing things into T vs D never gets boring!
    But what about all those rich minor sounds? I like my minor sounds! And m6s over alt doms don't actually sound very minor.

    YMMV
    Very likely :-)

  13. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    What I meant was playing V on IV. Can you think of an example where that works, but I on IV doesn't?
    Ah, just what I was wondering...

    Try Happy Birthday with the F as a G7. Or even as a C. Lotta ****!

    But more theriously - Attya:

    Ab - Eb7 - % - Ab
    Ab - G7 - C - %

    Might work, I suppose. But I'd be highly tempted to play Em6 and Abm6 over those doms.

    But Em6 over Bbm doesn't work.... gets complicated, don't it?

  14. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post


    But what about all those rich minor sounds? I like my minor sounds! And m6s over alt doms don't actually sound very minor.

    For me, m6 and m7b5 (same thing) are just rootless Dom 9, so good material for unaltered Dom class sounds. Mind you, Dom class has to be in 2 parts (at least), unaltered and altered. You can get alt sounds by superimposing m7b5 on the m3rd or b7 degree, as well as the usual other ways (MM, H/W dim, WT etc). So yeah, it's all Tonic, Dominant and Alt Dom...

    There are some great threads around that go deep. One in particular that opened with how George Benson uses T/D , a lot! ...

  15. #164

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    For me, m6 and m7b5 (same thing) are just rootless Dom 9, so good material for unaltered Dom class sounds. Mind you, Dom class has to be in 2 parts (at least), unaltered and altered. You can get alt sounds by superimposing m7b5 on the m3rd or b7 degree, as well as the usual other ways (MM, H/W dim, WT etc). So yeah, it's all Tonic, Dominant and Alt Dom...
    Sure, but what about the humble m7?

  16. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post

    Ab - Eb7 - % - Ab
    Ab - G7 - C - %
    ...
    Not sure I follow - are you saying that the Ab just before the G7 is an example of V7 of? IV ? (Ab7 on Dbmaj7 ?). That probably works, but what I meant was forcing V7 over (or in place of) IVmaj7 (eg - playing V7 material over the IVmaj7 chord for bar 4 in Autumn Leaves).

    Maybe I'm missing something???

  17. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Sure, but what about the humble m7?
    You mean what to sub over the m7? Or what can the m7 sub for?

  18. #167

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    yea... I tend to think of modern harmony as more of the control of function.... different organization of harmonic movement. The force that makes the harmony move or not. And subdominant function becoming more of a factor. I'm not getting into melodic thing... harmonic, right?

    The dominant thing.... I thinks its easy to create dominant chords... 7th chords as becoming Tonic... generally that was created by the modal development concepts.... getting your ears out of Ionianism.

  19. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    Aha! Gotcha!
    Did you?

    What was I got on?

    Help!

  20. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Sure, but what about the humble m7?
    Major in disguise just like the sus and m11 chord

  21. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    For me, m6 and m7b5 (same thing) are just rootless Dom 9, so good material for unaltered Dom class sounds. Mind you, Dom class has to be in 2 parts (at least), unaltered and altered. You can get alt sounds by superimposing m7b5 on the m3rd or b7 degree, as well as the usual other ways (MM, H/W dim, WT etc). So yeah, it's all Tonic, Dominant and Alt Dom...

    There are some great threads around that go deep. One in particular that opened with how George Benson uses T/D , a lot! ...
    Altered dominant = tritone

  22. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Did you?

    What was I got on?

    Help!
    Finally, a question where you didn't have a ready example to pull out in order to elucidate your answer! (I jest...) I thought it was just me, but maybe there just aren't that many tunes with a (non blues) IV chord?

  23. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    Not sure I follow - are you saying that the Ab just before the G7 is an example of V7 of? IV ? (Ab7 on Dbmaj7 ?). That probably works, but what I meant was forcing V7 over (or in place of) IVmaj7 (eg - playing V7 material over the IVmaj7 chord for bar 4 in Autumn Leaves).

    Maybe I'm missing something???
    I'm subbing Ab for Fm (relative minor - not allowed minors) and Eb7 for Bbm (same reason). Got to have the G7. We can have the Db, my mistake. So -

    Ab - Eb7 - % - Ab
    Db - G7 - C - %

    You're right, there's no V for IV sub. Bad example, unless we sub the Db with an Eb7. Which wouldn't be very good. Mind you, the melody note at that point is F (only F) which is the 9 of Eb7, so maybe.

    (We ought to stop messing about with perfectly good chords, really, and just play the damn tune as written!)

  24. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    You mean what to sub over the m7?
    Yes, your examples were m6 or m7b5. But the answer's a major, of course.

  25. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Major in disguise just like the sus and m11 chord
    Quite right, getting befuddled :-)

  26. #175

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    So no real examples then?

  27. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    So no real examples then?
    Of what? You do understand how T/D works, right?

  28. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    Of what?
    'Can you think of an example where that works, but I on IV doesn't?'

    Originally, with ATTYA, I put I on IV by subbing Ab for Db but we agreed it wasn't necessary.

  29. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    yea... I tend to think of modern harmony as more of the control of function.... different organization of harmonic movement. The force that makes the harmony move or not. And subdominant function becoming more of a factor. I'm not getting into melodic thing... harmonic, right?

    The dominant thing.... I thinks its easy to create dominant chords... 7th chords as becoming Tonic... generally that was created by the modal development concepts.... getting your ears out of Ionianism.
    Dominant chords are fine and all but they are a bit explicit. Sometimes that’s what you want. The melodic minor is doubly explicit as it has two tritones in it the diminished scale more so.... if you trim the explicit bits out of melodic minor, you end up with a pentatonic scale. And then you can put that major pent up a tritone on the altered chord - what I think of as the McCoy Tyner pentatonic. But that doesn’t necessarily have much to do with melodic minor....

    One thing that might be confusing is that to me a dominant is only a dominant if it has the b7th in it. So a G triad is a tonic function in the key of C. Obv not if we are talking about classical harmony but in jazz we have no problem adding G triad notes to a C chord.

    In fact the only Ionian note that absolutely will not play with the others is the 4th.

    So I divide all chords into two categories, chords with the 4th in and chords without.

    So what makes the dominant different to subdominant in this diatonic world? Well obviously that tritone dissonance, between 3rd and 7th. Our resolutions maybe somewhat softer - that B not the key of C might not move, but the tritone is still resolved to a more stable interval such as a fourth.

    Ok, so why is Fmaj7#11 stable and G7 not? Well that has a something to do with the stacking of the chord. If you support that #11 with a 3rd and 7th in a voicing its dissonance is nullified. Especially if it appears on top of the chord.

    A triad also works, which is why this 3rd inversion dominant voicing is used as a Lydian chord

    x 3 4 2 3 x

    While this one - afaik - is not

    x 3 4 4 3 x

    Anyway the upshot of this bs is that a dominant is a special case of subdominant - an activated subdominant if you like.

    Anyway not sure what that was all in aid of, but it’s how I view things really. It’s another take on T/D

    Probably Dom on subdom sounds fine, I don’t feel I’ve played around with it enough to get into the sound.

  30. #179

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    Finally, a question where you didn't have a ready example to pull out in order to elucidate your answer! (I jest...) I thought it was just me, but maybe there just aren't that many tunes with a (non blues) IV chord?
    Now I’m really confused

  31. #180

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Yes, your examples were m6 or m7b5. But the answer's a major, of course.
    Not that anyone has the faintest clue what I’m blathering on about, but the difference between m7 and m6 is actually a really good way of understanding the difference between floating and resolving chords.

    Typical CST jazz pedagogy kind of gets it with the stuff about avoid notes on those chords but it kind of gets it backwards from an improvising perspective.

    These aren’t avoid notes, avoiding 6 on m7 because you give the dominant away is too passive a way of thinking. Think instead: the 6 on minor is an activation note. The b7 on minor is a chill out note. (The 7 on minor is the colour note.)

    Of course it’s no accident that we tend to think of m7 as Dorian and m6 as melodic minor.

    But Mel minor can be floating if voiced in the right way - for instance lydian augmented structures. Or Dorian #4 - where those tritones ends up somewhat blended as an upper extension, and octave displaced.

    Usually it’s hungry though. (Avoid the 6, maybe? But aug triads are old school too.) and

    But anyway, you can play jazz with those two things - m7/Dorian and m6/melodic minor. (Maybe dim7 but reg doesn’t like those haha. I don’t like it either. Luckily there’s hip options for that with no tritones...)

    Now why do you think m6 is an old fashioned sound? (It is) Maybe we don’t ever need to give dominant away/activate the subdominant.

    So: it’s interesting to me that all Jordan Klemon’s/Stephon Harris’s melodic triads on dominants avoid these tritone sounds (they do come in as quadrad tension tones, but these aren’t considered important harmonic notes in lines so much) - even when they might be conventionally regarded as having something to do with MM modes. I guess duh, they are major and minor triads.

    The modern players like to use these floating options. Something I really notice in players like Lage Lund, Kreisberg etc.

    Given Jordan and Stephon chose them based on what they liked aesthetically based on their individual *colour* I’d say that’s quite clearly the aesthetic of contemporary jazz changes playing. Everything is a colour.
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-19-2019 at 02:14 PM.

  32. #181

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    Not your examples, princeplanet's.

  33. #182

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    I wasn’t really responding to you. Despite the quotation. I’m assuming as a working model you haven’t a clue what I’m rambling on about.

  34. #183

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    perhaps we all can explore this further with a NEW thread in the theory forum..any new players reading this may run for the hills and burn their guitar..as Its not a very clear or easy discussion to follow..but thats only my take on it..no offense to anyone

    play well ...
    wolf

  35. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen View Post
    perhaps we all can explore this further with a NEW thread in the theory forum..any new players reading this may run for the hills and burn their guitar..as Its not a very clear or easy discussion to follow..but thats only my take on it..no offense to anyone

    Really? I was concerned that it was my fault that this thread had taken a post humus turn into Obviousville, and that original posters from 6 years back would be aghast that a thread on Modern Jazz Harmony (ie, Non-Functional Harmony) has us now talking about Tonic , Dominant and Subdominant !

    And yes, we have veered away from the original script, but hey, unless Jack pops back in to say "Basta!", who really minds?

  36. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Not that anyone has the faintest clue what I’m blathering on about, but the difference between m7 and m6 is actually a really good way of understanding the difference between floating and resolving chords.

    .
    I'm trying to keep up as we keep diverting, but this statement reminds me of a personal epiphany several years back where the T/D thing for me became maj6 vs Dom9, which was further reduced to m7 vs m6. This can cover all of functional harmony except alt dom, which is of course simply m6 a tritone away.

    Works for me anyway....

  37. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Now I’m really confused
    Cool! Not only have I managed to stump you, but now I also have you confused, and all in the one thread! Serves you right for confusing the hell out of the rest of us...

    ... anyway, to carry on, this 4th degree golden rule of yours (well, everyone's really), has always intrigued me because i think there's several ways a 4th sounds ok over the tonic. Enclosing the 3rd by playing 4th on downbeat first sounds fine, ideas using a Tonic version of "family of 4" - c e g b, e g b d, g b d F, b d F a, - all sound fine to me in a certain context. Also, we agreed earlier that playing I over IV is usually fine (although not the same as playing IV over I ) ... dunno, I think peeps avoid 4 over tonic like they'll die if they dare play it. I only die when I play a maj 7th over a Dom7 in a bad way, but as you know, even there you can create a context where it not only works, but can sound kinda cool...

  38. #187

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I wasn’t really responding to you. Despite the quotation. I’m assuming as a working model you haven’t a clue what I’m rambling on about.
    Well, precisely. Using my quote as a way to flex your pedagoggy muscles... really.

    Of course I know what you're rambling on about - although with gems like this it's a miracle:

    Usually it’s hungry though. (Avoid the 6, maybe? But aug triads are old school too.) and
    Playing the m6 before the dom pre-empts the dom sound. You don't get the 7 to 3 movement, which makes the m6 a bit redundant.

    As for what you play, dorian with m7 and mel minor with m6 is good, but not necessarily. Depends. The #7 doesn't always sound right even with m6 chords. The #6 sounds very good but the #7 can grate a bit.

    I think use of the mel minor has to be considered. It's good for lyd dom and alt sounds. Apart from that, it tends to sound 'modern' but good with the right tunes. It can be used for colour.

    I did play with it over diminished chords too for a bit, despite one note being wrong. It can sound good but not always. Harmonic minor is safer although it can be a bit bland sometimes.

    Over major chords is quite interesting because it gives you the #5, #11 sound - A mel over CM7.

  39. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    maj 7th over a Dom7
    Oh, I like that - FM7 over G7. Or even AbM7 over G7. That was one of Benson's favorite moves.

  40. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolflen View Post
    perhaps we all can explore this further with a NEW thread in the theory forum..any new players reading this may run for the hills and burn their guitar..as Its not a very clear or easy discussion to follow..but thats only my take on it..no offense to anyone

    Good. There’s too many jazz guitar players. ;-)

  41. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Well, precisely. Using my quote as a way to flex your pedagoggy muscles... really.

    Of course I know what you're rambling on about - although with gems like this it's a miracle:



    Playing the m6 before the dom pre-empts the dom sound. You don't get the 7 to 3 movement, which makes the m6 a bit redundant.

    As for what you play, dorian with m7 and mel minor with m6 is good, but not necessarily. Depends. The #7 doesn't always sound right even with m6 chords. The #6 sounds very good but the #7 can grate a bit.

    I think use of the mel minor has to be considered. It's good for lyd dom and alt sounds. Apart from that, it tends to sound 'modern' but good with the right tunes. It can be used for colour.

    I did play with it over diminished chords too for a bit, despite one note being wrong. It can sound good but not always. Harmonic minor is safer although it can be a bit bland sometimes.

    Over major chords is quite interesting because it gives you the #5, #11 sound - A mel over CM7.
    Yeah sure. You don’t get what I’m taking about. One day I’ll find a way of explaining it that makes sense to people who aren’t me.

  42. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    Cool! Not only have I managed to stump you, but now I also have you confused, and all in the one thread! Serves you right for confusing the hell out of the rest of us...

    ... anyway, to carry on, this 4th degree golden rule of yours (well, everyone's really), has always intrigued me because i think there's several ways a 4th sounds ok over the tonic. Enclosing the 3rd by playing 4th on downbeat first sounds fine, ideas using a Tonic version of "family of 4" - c e g b, e g b d, g b d F, b d F a, - all sound fine to me in a certain context. Also, we agreed earlier that playing I over IV is usually fine (although not the same as playing IV over I ) ... dunno, I think peeps avoid 4 over tonic like they'll die if they dare play it. I only die when I play a maj 7th over a Dom7 in a bad way, but as you know, even there you can create a context where it not only works, but can sound kinda cool...
    Well yeah

    Just because it’s a non resolving note don’t make it a bad note. I play it all the time.

    It’s the best way of introducing harmonic motion over a static major chord. But you don’t want to land on it at the end of a phrase say. At least not unless you really hear it and you want to end on that these note. It’s like playing a dominant against tonic - it can be effective... but in general the technique that works well is to take dissonances and resolve them into target chords.

    Tbh a lot of people here seem to be working on the idea that you have to solo on the chords as written. The aebersold paradigm.

    You don’t- but you have to understand what makes waves against the tonality and how to deal with that energy.

    In a turnaround tune like rhythm changes you only have to deal with that energy in a short cycle. But with tunes where the resolutions are more stretched out like just friends, you are a little more concerned with making things touch base with the underlying chords, at least a bit.

  43. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    One day I’ll find a way of explaining it that makes sense to people who aren’t me.
    That would definitely help :-)

  44. #193

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    So is the discussion really about voice leading or harmony, sounds more like voice leading and voicings. Which is cool.

    Christian... the G triad over C is just a voicing... depending on the reference, simple reference can be roots.

    The 4th is also just a voicing or voice leading issue, what's implied, camouflaged or even deceptive. Your modern harmony world sounds like it's controlled by your traditional ears. Ionianism. Pretty hard to get into modern harmony using traditional guidelines.

    Prince... all you need to do to take Functional harmony into modern functional harmony... is add Modal guidelines. And then expand those modal guidelines to more pitch collections... even just using standard... Maj/ Min, Melodic Minor, Harmonic Maj and Min and the standard symmetrical scales you get Modern Harmony. And you can still use traditional functional guidelines for control of harmonic movement.... expanded Functional guidelines due to different relationships between notes and which notes have power in those relationships.

    So you can still have standard Functional control... Tonic, subdominant and Dominant with notes and intervals following different guidelines.

    I guess if you guys would just open the subdominant door of function... not just the 4th degree, you'll get into different chord progressions, which you might hear as modern. I don't know, we might have different ideas of what harmony is.

  45. #194

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    all you need to do to take Functional harmony into modern functional harmony... is add Modal guidelines.
    That's what I do. Stick to the thing but mode it up a bit. Nice.

    So, over E7 - Am

    instead of A harm play F mel - A mel

    or even F#harm - A mel

    etc. Gets the water off your chest :-)


  46. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Oh, I like that - FM7 over G7. Or even AbM7 over G7. That was one of Benson's favorite moves.
    I meant the maj 7 note, not the chord.

  47. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    I meant the maj 7 note, not the chord.
    It works. Here you are, twice in the 1st bar :-)


  48. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    So is the discussion really about voice leading or harmony, sounds more like voice leading and voicings. Which is cool.

    Christian... the G triad over C is just a voicing... depending on the reference, simple reference can be roots.

    The 4th is also just a voicing or voice leading issue, what's implied, camouflaged or even deceptive. Your modern harmony world sounds like it's controlled by your traditional ears. Ionianism. Pretty hard to get into modern harmony using traditional guidelines.
    Ionian, stop with the faux Greek, man, just call it the flippin' major scale.

    Yeah maybe... I can see that. There's a lot of stuff in my playing that's under development. But then..hmm.

    Basically I'm listening to stuff. Getting used to sounds.

    So I started off thinking like an idiot - there was functional changes playing, and then Trane and Wayne came along and lo! Chord scales. Well, it's more complicated. Even the stuff that is very CST seeming has other stuff going on... CST is kind of, well, basic.

    Most musicians these days of course have learned CST and talk about things in fairly straightforward terms, here's what I do with a melodic minor mode etc. Some guys pend a lot of time simply expressing chord scales on changes. Kurt does a lot of this, for instance.

    In general I have absolutely no problem understanding what they are talking about in masterclasses and so on, so I think have a decent grasp of the theory. it’s usually pretty straightforward, but the application is usually the hard bit.

    I don't always understand what you are talking about (I'm getting bits and pieces) so I've come to the conclusion you have your own way of looking at it...
    Last edited by christianm77; 11-20-2019 at 05:06 PM.

  49. #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    That would definitely help :-)
    Help what, who? Do you feel you want help? I don’t think so.

    I use this place as a sounding board for my own musings sometimes, but so does everyone else... also Prince asked me what I learned about modern harmony, so there you go. (Bet he’s sorry now.)

    It’s better to do it in playing. Then people can ask if they like what it is you do.

    It also relates to this video which may be clearer about one specific point in the above.


  50. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    I'm trying to keep up as we keep diverting, but this statement reminds me of a personal epiphany several years back where the T/D thing for me became maj6 vs Dom9, which was further reduced to m7 vs m6. This can cover all of functional harmony except alt dom, which is of course simply m6 a tritone away.

    Works for me anyway....
    You’ll keep dragging it back to functional changes and Reg will keep accusing me of Ionanism, which afaik is prohibited in the book of Leviticus. I think it also leads to chafing and poor eyesight.

    But yes. That is a thing. You know who taught me that? Charlie Christian. Well Barry, too. Although he wouldn’t put it that way...

  51. #200

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    LOL... the point of using Ionian is that one way of expanding harmony is using modal concepts. Part of just saying major puts you in traditional functional harmony mode or blinders, or classical whatever you would like to call . Do you have a set of groves and all the standard music theory and harmony books. I can start giving references if that would like. Part of understanding harmony is being able to use it, expand, don't just copy, actually create using the concepts, yada yada.

    The other thing most master classes are... well just that... classes for students. I'm not trying to knock your knowledge, actually I enjoy all your posts... your playing... hell your a good lookin chap, anyway, back in the late 70's I remember scoring a film, was called The Masters, martial arts and ballet, weird film, the director and producer wanted very contemporary music, so I used very modern harmony.... I used modal harmony and jazz rhythmic feels... sections had actual choices of what to play. With film you just need targets, film targets and back then you actually went in studio and recorded with reference film for sessions ... so conducted etc... not much of a budget... my point is modern harmony... generally gets away from Major, (better) because if you don't you could be the only one hearing it aw modern.... shi*** I need to head off to another gig.

    I'll check in later and try and find some old scores with modern harmony.... I also have some very modern jazz tunes... from my younger days, when I was more into to that music, as well as was the audiences.