March 2013 - East Of The Sun

**kris** · 03-11-2013, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by sunnysideup

I read an interview with Frank Zappa who said one of the things that he really liked about Wes Montgomery was the fun lines that Wes throws in from time to time; I also hear that in Howard Roberts and Frank too of course. But sorry I digress. This is a great corner of the forum and thanks to Wiz for organising it. If I ever get myself properly organised I'll put some stuff up too.

sorry... that you do not know what Miles Davies said about Wes...:-)
anyway Frank Zappa was great innovator.
I like his creativity very much.
best
kris

**Vladan** · 03-11-2013, 06:27 AM

I remember I've heard he'd said something similar, must be the same thing, but missquoted, or I remember it wrongly. Speaking of Zappa and humour, I especially like Stairway to Heaven, where whole wind section plays that (in) famous guitar solo in unison. That's hillarious.
Very often I throw a quote or paraphrase of some child song, or patriotic, or kitch folk hit, or ...

And yes, great par of the forum. Wiz is really doing something important here. And don't forget Reg, true pro, unselfishly sharing knoweledge.

**sunnysideup** · 03-11-2013, 09:59 AM

just getting back home after dinner .... so forgive me if I splurge...

Kris, I've never heard that Miles said anything about Wes... what did he say ? Seriously, I have 95% of Wes's recorded output and about 50 % of Miles's and I'm very interested in any interaction they may have had... I know Wes was a bit frustrated at never playing with Coltrane... amongst guitarists that honour went to Kenny... but as far as I know Wes and Miles had no interaction other than Wes covering some of Miles's tunes...

Believe me I do know what Frank said about Wes :-)

**sunnysideup** · 03-11-2013, 10:16 AM

Vlad,

I never heard Frank's version of Stairway, in fact I didn't even know he perfomed it...I did see Frank perform though, supported by Blondie in her first tour of Europe.

But I did meet the man who wrote the song... at the time I was poor young Punk guitarist in London trying to support my interest in music by working as a taxi driver... one of my jobs was to deliver a guitar to JP... and in person he was a charming and humble guy... though I only met him for 5 mins... the rest of the time I'm sure he was an over the top rocker that even Miles couldn't emulate ;-)

**Vladan** · 03-11-2013, 10:52 AM

This is deteriorating quickly.

Blondie is ammong my top rated bands of all times. I watched one of their concerts, but that was in their declining years,
1990-91, not sure, in Amsterdam, in Paradiso, I think. I did not have a ticket and watched the gig through the wide open entrance door, but I met her in person, on the streeet that morning, by accident. I thought that band was out of business for decade, members probably dead, and bang, there they are, right in my face, Debbie and Chris.

Zappa plays Stairways...I ve heard better recordings, but this was just first hit on Google:

**Vladan** · 03-11-2013, 10:59 AM

By the way, I've never ever heard about any connection btw Blondie and Zappa. Complete news for me. Maybe you're talkig different Blondie?

**sunnysideup** · 03-12-2013, 02:06 AM

ah... Paradiso.... Melkweg.... :-)

Blondie/Debbie Harry, her first European tour she was the support act for Frank, Hammersmith Odeon, can't even think about the year.

In deference to the purpose of this thread I'll try and steer my thoughts back. I like your philosophy about making a benefit out of your mistakes or deficiencies, I'm sure many innovations in jazz started as mistakes. You have probably heard the saying that a 'wrong' note in jazz is never more than a semitone or 1 fret away from a right note; one method of dealing with this mistake is to slide your finger 1 fret. Because I'm lazy I prefer just to play the wrong note again as if I mean it because by that time the harmony's moved on and it's a right note. If you play a whole chorus wrong then you're a free jazzer ;-)

A lot of the analysis on this site is based on post-swing theory, and obviously many of the people here are advanced players and have probably studied at Berklee or somewhere like that. But Louis Armstrong never took that approach, he just played around with the melody and the rhythm (and I really beg the theorists here not to start a war with me about this, because I am so tired of internet blah blah blah). It's possible to make good music at whatever level of theory you have; anyway you already know this - I look forward to your next offering and video :-)

**Reg** · 03-12-2013, 11:16 AM

Hey Sunnysideup... I learned to play jazz from melodies. And yes... not a whole lot is really need to create good music. The only point I would make... musicians like Armstrong are far and few.

We are on the net... and basically talking about music. If everyone posted lots of vids etc... a lot of the BS would never happen.

By post-swing are you referring to basically improve based on melodic concepts as compared to harmonic and melodic concepts.

**kris** · 03-12-2013, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Hey Sunnysideup... I learned to play jazz from melodies. And yes... not a whole lot is really need to create good music. The only point I would make... musicians like Armstrong are far and few.

We are on the net... and basically talking about music. If everyone posted lots of vids etc... a lot of the BS would never happen.

By post-swing are you referring to basically improve based on melodic concepts as compared to harmonic and melodic concepts.

+1
Tnx Reg

**Vladan** · 03-12-2013, 03:46 PM

I'll give +1 to both Sunnysideup and Reg, all true and nothing wrong or contradicting in either post.

I'll add another quote, sometimes credited to Frank Zappa (seemingly wrongly according to:Frank Zappa |):
Talking about music is like dancing about architecture.

However, talking about bands you like, background philosophy and theoretical cocepts, I think is quite OK.
You'd have to be Satchmo, or Zappa, or one of other few to play about those. Isn't it so?

**wizard3739** · 03-12-2013, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Hey Sunnysideup... I learned to play jazz from melodies. And yes... not a whole lot is really need to create good music. The only point I would make... musicians like Armstrong are far and few.

We are on the net... and basically talking about music. If everyone posted lots of vids etc... a lot of the BS would never happen.

By post-swing are you referring to basically improve based on melodic concepts as compared to harmonic and melodic concepts.

Hey Reg, me too. As you know, I am primarily an ear based player but I read ok and have always listened and studied intensely over the the past 50 years. I do understand most of the harmony and theory discussed on this forum but my ear responds much faster than my thought process for learning songs. I think it mostly because of the many years of transcribing music I like best.

wiz

**kris** · 03-12-2013, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Vladan

I'll give +1 to both Sunnysideup and Reg, all true and nothing wrong or contradicting in either post.

I'll add another quote, sometimes credited to Frank Zappa (seemingly wrongly according to:Frank Zappa |):
Talking about music is like dancing about architecture.

However, talking about bands you like, background philosophy and theoretical cocepts, I think is quite OK.
You'd have to be Satchmo, or Zappa, or one of other few to play about those. Isn't it so?

Satchmo, or Zappa...so different examples,different styles...legends...
I can not imagine Satchmo playing Giant Steps..:-)
Anyway ...we are in XXI century... from early 70's start big proces of jazz education/books,records,videos,new schools/.
A lot o great jazz players did fantastic instructional materials...so to learn "jazz" is much easer.
Nowdays a lot of young musicians playing beautifull music.
Best
kris

**Vladan** · 03-12-2013, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by kris

...I can not imagine Satchmo playing Giant Steps..:-)...

this could be the thing for that thread over there, but you may be on something, though unintentionaly.

Gather 100 Jazz musicians and ask them how they feel about What a wonderfull world, and how they feel about Giant Steps.
How they feel, not what they think about them. Chaces are all 100 would tell you they like them both. We'r not interested in further explanations.

Gather 100 random people from the street and ask them that same question. Chances are all 100 would tel "What a wonderfull song" for Satchmos hit, and about 83-92 wouldl say "What a Fq, never heard of it." for Coltrane's.
Remainig dozen or so happen to be Jazz students, that's how many of them there are today, it seams.

Now gather those 83-92, and let them listen to Giant Steps, for the first time in their lives.
Chances are all of them would say "WTF" again, but this time, maybe 5-10 out of the group would say that in a positive way, with excitement, because they really liked it.

**kris** · 03-13-2013, 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by Vladan

this could be the thing for that thread over there, but you may be on something, though unintentionaly.

Gather 100 Jazz musicians and ask them how they feel about What a wonderfull world, and how they feel about Giant Steps.
How they feel, not what they think about them. Chaces are all 100 would tell you they like them both. We'r not interested in further explanations.

Gather 100 random people from the street and ask them that same question. Chances are all 100 would tel "What a wonderfull song" for Satchmos hit, and about 83-92 wouldl say "What a Fq, never heard of it." for Coltrane's.
Remainig dozen or so happen to be Jazz students, that's how many of them there are today, it seams.

Now gather those 83-92, and let them listen to Giant Steps, for the first time in their lives.
Chances are all of them would say "WTF" again, but this time, maybe 5-10 out of the group would say that in a positive way, with excitement, because they really liked it.

If you think like that ...you have to play pop music!!!!

**Vladan** · 03-13-2013, 03:42 AM

You think I don't think what I should be thinking? Do you think reality results would be any different from what I've predicted in previous post?

And, yes I do play pop music, at least I think of it as being pop. Ther's no shortage of my clips for that matter. As I've openly admitted, I'm not here to learn Jazz, but to learn about Jazz and how Jazz is played. I like that sound.
I think Jazz is subdivision of greatest POP familly. One of least popular nowdays, though. I think it should change.

**kris** · 03-13-2013, 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by Vladan

You think I don't think what I should be thinking? Do you think reality results would be any different from what I've predicted in previous post?

And, yes I do play pop music, at least I think of it as being pop. Ther's no shortage of my clips for that matter. As I've openly admitted, I'm not here to learn Jazz, but to learn about Jazz and how Jazz is played. I like that sound.
I think Jazz is subdivision of greatest POP familly. One of least popular nowdays, though. I think it should change.

Vladan,
I do not like play pop...:-( ...but like to hear good pop.
I like to play jazz -improvisation,chords,harmony ...analyse solos of great musicians.
This is hard work to know what to play and how to play.I feel better if I can improvise...:-)It is like fresh air.
Best
kris

**Vladan** · 03-13-2013, 04:44 AM

And you're very good at it, as far as I can tell.

Got to comment on improvisation thing, however. When I was younger, we'd go to studio to record something. Quite often, recording guy would say, "oh, so improvised solo, again". We'd say, "Yes, sure, improvised."(Imagine Beavis and Buthead in the situation). I think we just could not play it the same twice in a row. Again, knowing that, we never bothered to make it "fixed" either.
Point being, you do not have to play Jazz by Jazz rules if you're to play improvised music.

**kris** · 03-13-2013, 06:53 AM

I am not good .. I am trying to be good...:-)
Jazz is not a philosophy- just you play it or not.
TX
Kris

**Vladan** · 03-13-2013, 08:02 AM

Form without content? I don't think so. If that is so, than it's not art, but artistry, belonging to circus show and amusement park, not to a music hall.

Form as a content? Possible, but we need strong concept, or philosophy, to back it up.

**kris** · 03-13-2013, 08:21 AM

Have a nice day!

**Vladan** · 03-13-2013, 08:43 AM

Very nice.

**pkirk** · 03-13-2013, 12:05 PM

hey Kris, that's nice. but it cuts off just when the groove gets going...is there a part 2? Nice use of the whammy pedal. I assume you've heard clips where Jim Hall uses one?

Is that a frameworks guitar? a friend of mine (Peter Kienle, a great player) has one (a 7 string) and loves his. My nylon string is a Turner renaissance RN6H, which I love, the fretboard is a bit curved and slightly narrower than a classical guitar, so it feels more comfortable to me. Here's a clip where we both play nylons (I play the heads, and he takes the first solo), you can hear the difference.

SoundClick artist: Paul Kirk - page with MP3 music downloads

**kris** · 03-13-2013, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by pkirk

hey Kris, that's nice. but it cuts off just when the groove gets going...is there a part 2? Nice use of the whammy pedal. I assume you've heard clips where Jim Hall uses one?

Is that a frameworks guitar? a friend of mine (Peter Kienle, a great player) has one (a 7 string) and loves his. My nylon string is a Turner renaissance RN6H, which I love, the fretboard is a bit curved and slightly narrower than a classical guitar, so it feels more comfortable to me. Here's a clip where we both play nylons (I play the heads, and he takes the first solo), you can hear the difference.

SoundClick artist: Paul Kirk - page with MP3 music downloads

Hi Paul,
Thanks.There is only intro because of tech problems.I like Jim Hall very much.
Yes it is Frameworks modern classic guitar.
Your Turner Renaissance RN6H sounds exelent-very fat sounding nylon strings guitar.I've used before Gibson Chet Atkins/for me a littke to big nut width/.
You play great music in duo.
what kind of amp do you use?
Thanks
kris

**pkirk** · 03-13-2013, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by kris

Hi Paul,
Thanks.There is only intro because of tech problems.I like Jim Hall very much.
Yes it is Frameworks modern classic guitar.
Your Turner Renaissance RN6H sounds exelent-very fat sounding nylon strings guitar.I've used before Gibson Chet Atkins/for me a littke to big nut width/.
You play great music in duo.
what kind of amp do you use?
Thanks
kris

wow that's nice. I'm guessing you are using a synth on that clip, or is that some kind of effect pedal?

On that clip, it was probably a Clarus with a Redstone 10" speaker. Probably a nanoverb reverb.

**kris** · 03-13-2013, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by pkirk

wow that's nice. I'm guessing you are using a synth on that clip, or is that some kind of effect pedal?

On that clip, it was probably a Clarus with a Redstone 10" speaker. Probably a nanoverb reverb.

I've used old Roland Gr-09 guitar synth.It was difficult to play on it because of delay/latecy.
I /ve used AER Compact XL.
Best
Kris