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  1. #51

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    I don't think Joe would hold on the maj 3rd, but as a passing note it was one of his faves. The Mingus voicing was also used by Oscar Peterson, only he would use both the minor and maj 7th like so.

    G7 = G B D F F#

    MW

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Hi renema - is the second example of a line cliche supposed to read Cm, Cm+,
    Cm6, Cm7?? Lime like Cry Me A River??

    Sailor

  4. #53

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    Hey Matt - wouldn't the F# make the Dm a D7 which is V of G7, and the new leading tone??

    Sailor

  5. #54

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    The F# could be thought of as the leading tone of G7 if you held it, which would give it an accent. If it's passing it makes it sound chromatic more than a chord tone.

    Lenny Breau used this method all the time, especially when playing trio, duo or solo. He would freely go between a iim7 and a II7 chord depending on the line he wanted to play. So the first time through the tune it could be Dm7-G7-Cmaj7, then the second time it could be D7-G7-Cmaj7.

    It's a great technique, but we need to be careful when using it alongside a pianist as it might clash with their voicings.

    MW

  6. #55

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    Thanks matt - I just thought you always wanted to have the leading tone when temporarily tonicizing a new chord. Didn't you say that they do the same thing with rhythm changes, sometimes a minor ii, sometimes a II7?? (leading to V).

    Sailor

  7. #56

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    That's right, a iim7 chord gives it a subdominant sound and the II7 gives it a secondary dominant sound. It all depends on the situation. If you are blowing or comping it's kind of up to you which you want to use, but in a chord melody or behind a singer you should make sure the melody doesn't clash with the chord.

    Though! If you play D7 instead of Dm7 and the melody is the m3rd, F, it becomes a D7#9 chord which is a very jazzy sound for a dominant chord.

    MW

  8. #57

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    So you're saying that this isn't really a clash here; it's a different chord that actually sounds pretty good??

    Can you find my accompanying question and respond if you have time?

    LOVE this thread

    Sailor

  9. #58

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    Yep that's right, sorry I don't know which accompanying question you mean, can you ask it again and I'll do my best to answer it for you.

    MW

  10. #59

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    Sorry to have to re-ask in this thread but my question about accompanying got some vague responses.

    I'm going to be playing with a vocalist, standards, 30s and 40s. I don't really know what to do to extend the songs or fill in during instrumental breaks.
    I didn't want to just play chord melody which seems like a lot of the same thing, or just do a verse comp or something. What do you fill with, ( especially on short songs like fly me to the moon)?

    Thanks Sailor

  11. #60

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    I usually just take a chorus or two of solo. I do chord solos, or single lines, or alternate the two. I also like to walk basslines and comp to fill up space if it doesn't seem to need a solo section.

    The possibilities are endless, I would start with a few solo ideas and see how they feel to you.

    MW

  12. #61

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    Thanks a bunch - I think I'll use the idea of some bassline with comp. I'm not great at soloing if there's no accompaniment.

    Sailor

  13. #62

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    THE CHART OF ACCEPTABLE JAZZ TENSIONS
    (Based on the "Chord-Scale Voicings for Arranging" course at Berklee)
    • TENSION 9: Can be added to all types of chords:
      Dm9, Fm9b5, Gmaj9 etc...
    • TENSION b9/#9: Can be added only to dominant seventh chords:
      D7b9 (good), G7#9 (good), Am7b9 (bad)
    • TENSION 11: Can be added only to minor chords:
      Dm11 (good), Fm11b5 (good), G11 (bad -use G7sus4)
    • TENSION sus4: Can be added only to major chords:
      D9sus4 (good), Fsus4 (good), Gm7sus4 (bad -use Gm11)
    • TENSION #11: Can be added only to major chords:
      D9#11 (good), Fmaj7#11 (good), Gm7#11 (bad -sounds like Hungarian minor)
    • TENSION 13: Can be added only to major chords:
      D13 (good), Fmaj13 (good), Dm13 (bad -sounds like a dominant seventh chord)
    • TENSION b13: Can be added only to dominant seventh chords:
      D7b13 (good), Dm7b13 (bad -although used in line cliches)

  14. #63

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    That's a good chart! The only thing I would add is that those rules are geared towards arrangers, mostly for horns etc. When comping sometimes these chords will work out, like m13(m6) chords which would sound bad in a horn arrangement. And when blowing the tension tends to depend on whether the note is accented or not, and if it's part of a pattern/phrase or stuck at the begining or end of a line.

    Thanks for posting the chart!
    MW

  15. #64

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    The Arranging class at Berklee had some special guidelines for 9ths on what my yellowing workbook calls "melodic tensions":

    9ths are not usually used on IIIm7 chords.

    On m7b5 chords, the 9th is available only if diatonic to the key.

  16. #65

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    It's nice to have scales relations explained, makes life so much easier...
    I certainly like the way the scales are all in close proximity of the previous one, so you don't have to fly across the fretboard like a mad dog in search of water.
    And one thing Matt, in one of your replies I saw you citing some 'Coltrane' patterns, you may not know this, but my foremost wish is to play the guitar like Coltrane did the sax, and I've found some thing with Coltrane patterns for download, but it's not tab, it's notes, and while I'm getting on better every day since I played trumpet in the school orchestra for a number of years, it's still not fluent again on the reading thing, so I wonder if you know some source for tabs of those patterns, I'd be ever so relieved and happy, I tried to understand the short pieces you mentioned in your reply, the # is for sharp, or raised I suppose, and I believe there was a B too, I suppose that's lowered, but is that referring to the note pre to the B or the following one? And I suppose the numbers are Major ones, not minor or something?

    But as I said - the lessons are swell, and it's good to have the scales close to one another!

    Peace

    Oh, and by the way, this is where I found the download of Trane patterns:
    Casa Valdez Studios: Coltrane patterns

    skei

  17. #66

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    Cool, yeah the # is short for sharp, or raised by a half step, one fret, and the b is short for flat, or lowered by a half step, one fret.

    I am just writing an article on Coltrane patterns that will be up on this site in the coming weeks. Stay tuned as it will contain a bunch of Trane's patterns in tab form.

    MW

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by m78w
    Cool, yeah the # is short for sharp, or raised by a half step, one fret, and the b is short for flat, or lowered by a half step, one fret.

    I am just writing an article on Coltrane patterns that will be up on this site in the coming weeks. Stay tuned as it will contain a bunch of Trane's patterns in tab form.

    MW
    Great man!
    I'll be sure to look for it, you can count on that!
    Peace
    Skei

  19. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by samuelparsons
    can somebody explain the meaning of "alt" on chords, such as the "G7alt?" Thanks!
    You have 4 possibilitys for the altered chord, this meens you must altered with b9, #9 and b5, #5.
    If i wrong please someone must corrige me

  20. #69

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    altered tensions can be any diatonic note in a chord that raised or lowered a half step. When you see G7alt or Galt written then, yea, you're right on the money.

  21. #70

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    Thanks for posting the Trane Patterns! John Coltrane was a fabulous musician.

  22. #71

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    Hi - I'm new to playing jazz (having played in cabaret for many years). My wife is a very good singer and she likes the old standards e.g. by Ella and Sarah Vaughan. My problem is, that though I know most of the 'standard' chord shapes - including minors, augmented and diminished chords - I am not conversant with many of the chords I see mentioned in this forum e.g. minor 7b5 (and many others). Is there book out there that can give me the shapes for these less common shapes? I don't read music, but I can read guitar tab. P.S. I have copied one or two of the song chord patterns put on by Matt Warnock, and they have helped - thanks Matt.

  23. #72

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    Hi Bruce, all chord you need to know are in our free chords ebook:

    http://www.jazzguitar.be/subscribe.html

    - Dirk

  24. #73

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    Yeah, the chord theory lesson on the jazzguitar.be website will help too.

  25. #74
    Stringbean Guest
    This lesson is helpful, but it would be really great to have some audio examples of the material. I'm working with the scales, but it aint sounding like jazz.

  26. #75

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    One thing you can do is start to add the chromatic notes from the chromatic lesson on this site to make these scales sound more "jazzy". Remember it's not the scales/arps that make it sound like jazz, it's the feel, swing, pulse and the notes that aren't in the scale that give it that "jazzy" sound.

    MW

  27. #76

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    Stringbean, my friend!
    I'm not much more than a newbie myself, but I recognize lots of your issues.
    Until a week ago I had the same feeling, I could get the jazz feeling if I strictly followed the notes in the chromatics lesson, but otherwise no...
    And I felt I just didn't get it.
    But I said to myself; 'Keep at it, don't give up, you'll find the key, sooner or later'.
    And lo and behold, I think I found it a couple of days ago.
    As master Warnock states, it's got much to do with chromatics, and timing, and feel, and lots of other things I still have to learn. But those three issues are extremely important. As somebody said here, as a rocker, you don't have the same thing with chromatic strings. more scales. And the time issue, well, somebody said 'you don't tap on 1 & 3 but on 2 & 4, that's important to get swing. More so than I'd have ever believed until I started listening real carefully to my recordings. It's vital. And the feel. That most illusive ingredient. It combines all your knowledge with a kind of feeling you have to get, or receive, if you're lucky enough to have a live teacher at hand who has it in him or her to let you in. And somebody said one should listen to Paul Desmond. I had done so many times. But there's a big difference between listening and really taking in. So I did do that. And it's amazing.

    Time.
    Chromatics.
    Feel.
    Therein lies the key.

    I spent 8 months learning scales and chords and stuff, but didn't get it, couldn't feel jazz in what I played, no matter how hard I tried, and nobody could tell me how to.

    It all fell into place with 'count 2 & 4'.
    And growing into it, I suppose.
    Afro blue from Coltrane live at half note just now in my ears. That's important. All wake hours, except when the wife says 'no' there's jazz in these ears. Necessary.
    To get the feel.
    Don't forget chromatics and time.

    Peace
    &
    It'll come
    Skei (the just starting to get it after 8 months of hard work one)

  28. #77

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    I can't seem to find the correct notes to build a G7alt chord, I think of the G7 chord as G,B,D,F,is there another note to this chord, please help

  29. #78

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    Sure, just keep going up the scale.

    G7alt = G B D F Ab Bb C# D#

    A good grip for this as a starter is

    3x3446

    MW

  30. #79
    Stringbean Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by skei
    Stringbean, my friend!

    But I said to myself; 'Keep at it, don't give up, you'll find the key, sooner or later'.
    And lo and behold, I think I found it a couple of days ago.
    As master Warnock states, it's got much to do with chromatics, and timing, and feel,)
    RogerWilco, thanks man. I'm working on it....and I think I'm starting to hear my notes moving from chord to chord, in some sensible fashion.

    I'm holding off on the chromatics for now, as I'm still not hearing these scales properly.

    Cheers!

    PS. Does anyone have a list of minor blues tunes?
    Last edited by Stringbean; 09-01-2008 at 01:49 PM.

  31. #80

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    Mr. PC by Coltrane is one of my favorites.

  32. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07
    Mr. PC by Coltrane is one of my favorites.
    I couldn't have said it any better myself. The only thing is that whenever I listen to Coltrane I get this feeling, like a turtle checking out a leopard.
    Cannonball Adderley did some great blues tunes too. I'm no expert, but if I'm not completely born under a bad sign this here one, called 'Dis here' sounds like a minor blues to me. It shure sounds bluesy, and it's not without minor chords, I'm sure some of the more knowledgeable players will slap my forehead for suggesting that one.
    But, life is short, and the taxman has long arms, so why not...
    Peace
    &
    Soft horns in the night, preferably combined with a guitar or two...
    Skei (the sitting all day and all night by the computer playing guitar and writing poems one)

  33. #82
    enough to keep the mind occupied for eternity.richard bourne

  34. #83

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    "Interplay"---Bill Evans/Jim Hall
    "Mr PC"
    "Stolen Moments"
    "Blue Trane"
    "Birk's Works"
    etc...

    They're all over the place, though I can't think of anymore.

  35. #84

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    "Summertime" is basically a minor blues. "Song for my Father" is minor blues with a bridge and some twists.

  36. #85

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    Since we know that, probably especially in jazz and other improvisational music, rules are made to be broken in art, the chart could just be renamed "Currently accepted tensions" or "Accepted tensions for the purposes of this arranging course".

  37. #86
    franco/going to listen to mr p. c.

  38. #87

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    Beautiful solo from beginning to end by Coltrane on that one. It's often been overlooked a bit because of Giant Steps/Countdown are on the same album. But I think it is really one of his most perfecty developed and melodic of that period.

  39. #88
    Stringbean Guest
    Still rockin this lesson, good times...

    quick question: Why no subs for the Fm7 in bars 5 and 6?

  40. #89

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    Those chords usually don't get subbed that often, at least in bar 5, bar six can do some funky things like:

    Fm7 Fm7/Eb/Dm7b5 G7alt/Cm7 etc


    MW

  41. #90
    the minor tonality would be lost
    Last edited by 604bourne123; 05-25-2009 at 11:57 PM.

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by franco6719
    "Interplay"---Bill Evans/Jim Hall
    "Mr PC"
    "Stolen Moments"
    "Blue Trane"
    "Birk's Works"
    etc...

    They're all over the place, though I can't think of anymore.
    five spot after dark--benny golson, in Bm

    equinox--john coltrane, in C#m

  43. #92

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    hello to evre body

  44. #93
    Stringbean Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by 604bourne123
    the minor tonality would be lost
    Interesting.
    thanks

  45. #94
    to progress through the 11 scale exercises with the chording and leads is not easy thing to do but you have to /to be any kind guitar player and then to improvise with different chords all in your head at a specific exercise really opens the doors to the tunes of minor blues
    Last edited by 604bourne123; 06-06-2009 at 09:10 PM.

  46. #95

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    five spot after dark--benny golson, in Bm

    equinox--john coltrane, in C#m

    Those sound like good examples in challenging and unusual keys. In jazz, there's a danger of getting habituated to the "horn" keys of most jazz standards and nothing else. It's important to stretch out.

  47. #96

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    hello every one

  48. #97

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    Welcome aboard Elie!

    MW

  49. #98

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    Thank you very much, great thread

  50. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by funnyval
    I've heard Joe Pass say in various places that he doesn't think about the IIm chord in II-V progressions, although he covers the different minor scales in detail in his method books. Is that the type of thinking you are using when playing V altered scales over the IIm7b5?

    For example, for minor blues measures 9-10, over the Dm7b5 G7alt, the G altered (Ab melodic minor) scale is recommended. Analyzing this over the Dm7b5, you get the 11, b5, b13, 13, natural 7, b9 and b3. How is this rationalized, or am I being too rational? It can sound good, but why does this work, especially the Db note.

    For Gm7b5 in measure 4, do you ever recommend using G locrian (Ab major) or G locrian natural 9 (Bb melodic minor) which keeps the A note.

    Or for Dm7b5 in measure 9, do you ever recommend D locrian (Eb major)? Proably wouldn't tend to think D locrian natural 9 (F melodic minor) here since that would give you the non-key E natural note.

    Or do you ever just think Ab major for Gm7b5 C7alt and Eb major for Dm7b5 G7alt and catch the chord tones in the 7 chords if desired?
    These are all good ideas. You can also try harmonic minor-style licks on the altered 7 or and upper structure diminished arpeggio or tritone substition.
    Miles once said to Coltrane "You can't play everything on this tune." Coltrane replied: "Why not?"

  51. #100

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    Franco,
    Very nice quote. And those two (Miles and John) were also so very much opposing poles of sorts. Miles with his often sparse, probing methodology, Trane with the bombastic approach, well there are examples of very sensitive approaches from him too, Naima comes to mind, but more often than not the 'why not' seems like a good key signature for the man. He did it well, but so did Cannonball Adderley.

    Peace
    Skei ( the my guys got into parliament one)