Playing the changes vs. playing over the key center

[pamosmusic]

Learn your arpeggios, that is a big key to sounding like you're playing the changes and not just noodling in a key. Once you can 'see' the arpeggios in the scales, that's a clue to which notes you can "lean on" to sound like you're playing the changes and not just running your fingers through scales *yuk* Learn to play them backward and forward, cleanly, with equal aplomb, in all positions and in any key.

Actually, a good player can come up with lots of interesting things to play by just limiting himself to the arpeggios. It's a good exercise to master when learning how to sound like your playing changes and not sound like vague noodling.

Then, once you've got them in your muscle memory you can start adding back in other scale tones, upper extensions, alterations, chromatic tones, leading tones etc, etc.

Noodle x2

Yep. Learning arpeggios and coming up with lines using just those is a great exercise. To be fair, I did recommend it back yonder in post #2.

For what it's worth, and again, blues is generalizing over changes to a degree. It's a kind of key center playing and it's everywhere in good jazz improvising. Knowing the changes is essential, but when folks say that "noodling in a key center" is silly, they imply it's the key center that's the problem. It is, in fact, the noodling. Lines with some direction are cool, regardless of their relationship to the harmony.

[AdroitMage]

Noodle x2

Yep. Learning arpeggios and coming up with lines using just those is a great exercise. To be fair, I did recommend it back yonder in post #2.

For what it's worth, and again, blues is generalizing over changes to a degree. It's a kind of key center playing and it's everywhere in good jazz improvising. Knowing the changes is essential, but when folks say that "noodling in a key center" is silly, they imply it's the key center that's the problem. It is, in fact, the noodling. Lines with some direction are cool, regardless of their relationship to the harmony.

What kind of blues are you talking about, though? For straight ahead blues, sure the key center thing can work fine, blues scale, sliding blues scale, a substitute blues scale here and there. But, for a jazzed blues, yes, all your blues scale stuff still works, but if you really want to sound hip you should mix in a good bit of improvising on each chord as its own thing, substitute chords, and playing the cadences too, IMO. Yes, mixing in hip blues scale lines with all that is really freaking hip too, though. That stuff never goes out of style, it just works. There is so much you can do with such a simple thing if you're creative. It allows you to be extremely expressive and make the guitar talk. Yes, get your blues stuff down, it sounds GREAT mixed into jazz tunes too. All the renowned players do it. Yeah buddy, you can make some really hip sounds with a strong command of what you can do with blues and pentatonic lines too, oh yes!

I didn't even say noodling in this one. When I say noodling, I just mean your lines sound vague and uninteresting, and just like they're floating over the top of the cadences and not really in them outlining the chords.

[pamosmusic]

but if you really want to sound hip you should mix in a good bit of improvising on each chord as its own thing, substitute chords, and playing the cadences too, IMO. Yes, mixing in hip blues scale lines with all that is really freaking hip too, though. That stuff never goes out of style, it just.

How dare you accuse me of advocating "blues scale lines."

But the hour grows late.

I am weary.

[AdroitMage]

Noodle x2

Yep. Learning arpeggios and coming up with lines using just those is a great exercise. To be fair, I did recommend it back yonder in post #2.

I hate to be the one to split hairs, but the word arpeggio never appeared in your post #2. You talked about triads, not arpeggios. Triads and arpeggios are the same if you're discussing 3 note chords (triads), but not 4 note 7th chords; similar but still not exactly the same. Since you had already discussed triads in your post, I did not mention them, but rather talked about 4 note arpeggios extended out to the 7th from the root. A player can construct really hip sounding lines using both of these tools.

Arpeggios, using 4 note arpeggios, were not explained until post #78 in this thread. Admittedly, I did not read this thread all the way to post #78 before writing mine because although some of the posts were making me react like this others were making me want to scream, LOL. I'm just talking about going through the tune thinking about the arpeggio for that 7th chord or the arpeggio of any chord that can substitute for that chord that you might want to use as a sub.

Like I said, I don't like splitting hairs, but in this scenario it is an important distinction. Adding/changing just one note in music can make a big difference. G7#5 sounds different from G7, sounds different from a Gmaj7, sounds different from Gmaj7b5.

It's all good . They are both excellent tools to use for improvising. I think we were both thinking along the same lines anyway.

Since it just came to mind, I would also mention to the OP learning all the chord sub rules as soon as possible, if he doesn't already know them. Then to remember that any time you can sub a chord, you can also sub the scales that go with that chord sub and the triads and arpeggios that go with that chord sub. It's a lot to think about, but with enough practice it all fits in the ole noggin.

[pamosmusic]

I hate to be the one to split hairs

You absolutely love it.

and thank you for the exhaustive post outlining how triads and 7th chords are different.

[pamosmusic]

And I absolutely love to split hairs, so in that spirit, your posts used the word “arpeggio” without specifying whether you meant 7th chords or triads. I’m still deciding if I want to be weird and snarky about that or not.

It bears mentioning too, that the way you talk about this is very guitar-centric and very jazz-ed.

Other instruments think of scalar lines as extremely valid means of outlining changes. I think guitarists fixation on arpeggios (and I’m like that too) comes from the visual/tactile component of guitar that is very different from a lot of other instruments. But just guessing.

Anyway.

Look at the melody to Half Nelson. You wouldn’t know the specific chord changes just by looking at the pitches, but it still fits the changes beautifully. So many tunes and improvisations look like this. I’ve been transcribing a bunch of Oscar Peterson and Clifford Brown lately and the same goes for them. Even guitarists aren’t always like this — Grant Green can be pretty scalar at times. This is not to say that they don’t “hit the changes.” Obviously they do. And someone listening to them in context would probably know the tune without any accompaniment, but the idea that they’re explicitly outlining all the chords, favoring arpeggios most is the time, and eschewing scale runs is kind of a fiction you can’t support by looking at real music.

BUT ONCE AGAIN — I have said this like 19 times but I’ll say it again. Someone learning this music would be well served by starting with explicitly outlining chord changes in their simplest form. I think triads are the move, but sure, 7th chords are fine too and you’d get there eventually anyway.

[Christian Miller]

Even Charlie Christian played scales

[Christian Miller]

The correct term to use in this context would be 'chord tones'

[Reg]

OK... this is not for beginners or players who don't already have an approach for playing in a jazz style or jazz tunes....

So in the simi bop style and approach..... Dewey Square is called, I know Christian likes the tune. What changes or chords are you using ... simi standard ensemble.... Guitar rhythm section and a horn.

If you don't know or even know the tune.

[pauln]

Phrasing "arpeggio up, scale down" is perhaps the easiest, comprehensible, and readily applicable basis for good sounding Jazz lines on the guitar... for both changes and key center.

[pamosmusic]

OK... this is not for beginners or players who don't already have an approach for playing in a jazz style or jazz tunes....

So in the simi bop style and approach..... Dewey Square is called, I know Christian likes the tune. What changes or chords are you using ... simi standard ensemble.... Guitar rhythm section and a horn.

If you don't know or even know the tune.

Eb Abm Eb C7
F7 — Bb7 —

Ab Abm Eb C7
F7 — Bb7 —

[mr. beaumont]

OK... this is not for beginners or players who don't already have an approach for playing in a jazz style or jazz tunes....

So in the simi bop style and approach..... Dewey Square is called, I know Christian likes the tune. What changes or chords are you using ... simi standard ensemble.... Guitar rhythm section and a horn.

If you don't know or even know the tune.

A section, I'm probably playing Eb maj/ blues ideas until the C7, then it's just a standard turnaround...

[Christian Miller]

It’s Eb lady be good with a minor IV

Edit: although I suppose the II7 chord is more prominent in the A so maybe not.

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[AdroitMage]

The correct term to use in this context would be 'chord tones'

Sure, the words "chord tones" works too, but the advice I gave came pretty much verbatim from a Pat Metheny interview I read many moons ago, where he was talking about this exact same subject; though I added a little bit too it. Pat used the word "arpeggios" so that's the word I tend to use too.

I think it's one of those things that's "6 of one a half dozen of the other," whatever words you choose you still get to the same thing.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Also I am particularly interested in hearing about nevershouldavesoldit's approach because he is a very good player.

Thanks for that!! Sorry about the delayed response - it's been a very busy 2 weeks, with 7 gigs in 14 days.

I don't have an organized approach - I just play what I hear in my head. I studied classical piano and formal theory for about 10 years as a child (age 4 to 14). I started playing guitar in middle school. I loved jazz, and I learned about modes, inversions, extensions etc from reading, listening, and pestering the local pros. So I slowly learned how it's "supposed to be". But that knowledge was of little utility to me, except to try to understand what I was hearing from those who shaped my development. It took years to understand why the lines I loved so much sounded as they do. And I spent several years trying to apply theory to my improvisation in real time. This made me sound hesitant, arbitrary, pedantic, and formulaic. I thought I could eventually overcome this and make it sound spontaneous, but I was wrong. Some can do it, but I can't. And I probably ruined more than a few weddings with my jazzy solos in Raindrops Keep Falling on My Head.

So once I knew fairly well which notes got me the sound I wanted, I found that I played more naturally if I didn't think about anything but the tune I was playing while I was playing it. So my advice to those struggling to find a voice is to step back to feel and listen to the music. Learn as much theory as you can. But don't clutter your mind with attempts to play "by the book". Let what's in your head come out. When you hear a cool line or phrase that you really like, cop it and figure out why it sounds so good to you. Figure out the theory behind it, so you can understand it and come up with similar sounds yourself. But intentionally trying to play in accord with specific theory seems to me to be a fool's errand.

Emulate others and you'll sound like them. Follow your ears and you'll come up with new and exciting sounds for yourself. And when you play the same old same old, you'll make it fresh with your own approach. I'm certainly no Johnny Smith, Joe Pass, or Pasquale Grasso, but this seems to work well for me. YMMV.

[Christian Miller]

Sure, the words "chord tones" works too, but the advice I gave came pretty much verbatim from a Pat Metheny interview I read many moons ago, where he was talking about this exact same subject; though I added a little bit too it. Pat used the word "arpeggios" so that's the word I tend to use too.

I think it's one of those things that's "6 of one a half dozen of the other," whatever words you choose you still get to the same thing.

You have probably checked out the lesson recording someone posted online years ago with Pat teaching this. that recording is great advice for the intermediate player who knows their scales and so on, but is frustrated with their playing (and basically what I said above.) the guy he is teaching is a classic example.

Mostly it’s a necessary corrective because guitarists have certain cultural disadvantages and the nature of our instrument obscures connections that are obvious on a keyboard instrument. Most players need to hear this type of advice. But it’s not the alpha and omega.

but pace Pat and with respect, I don’t like the term ‘arpeggio’ because it literally means ‘in the manner of a harp’- which is not what we are trying to do here. I think guitarist hear arpeggio they think of something in fast note values. Maybe Yngwie haha!

That is not what it is - chord tone practice is gainfully done in quarters and half notes as a basis for embellishment. Something structural.

Transcribing Pat himself I’m struck by how much he makes out of simple elements like triads coupled with a lot of upbeats, more than most jazz guitarists. He’s kind of Brazilian! It’s not what I would think of as being very bebop. I think he himself said he was trying to get away from that thing. (Although bop has lots of triads - bird at least. But most bop musicians aren’t as rhythmically inventive as bird.)

I think this breaks up the ‘arpeggio’ sound and makes it sound interesting to listen to. Otoh most intermediate jazz players are nowhere near playing with this level of rhythmic invention. Rhythm again, trumps everything. (Doesn’t he say that?)

Obviously Pat plays scalar lines too.


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[pamosmusic]

Obviously Pat plays scalar lines too

And pentatonics, which haven’t really come up much here. Which is interesting because they sort of purposefully obscure that scale/arpeggio, key/changes dichotomy.

[djg]

It’s Eb lady be good with a minor IV

Edit: although I suppose the II7 chord is more prominent in the A so maybe not.

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it's yardbird suite with a LBG bridge.

[Christian Miller]

And pentatonics, which haven’t really come up much here. Which is interesting because they sort of purposefully obscure that scale/arpeggio, key/changes dichotomy.

Yeah this reminds me …

Barry said it’s hard to be as free with scale use as with chord tones and intervals.

Pentatonics are freeing because they represent what to our post Debussy post jazz ears sound like a euphonious sound on a chord. There’s (usually) no half step resolutions… so you can be free with them.

Barry didn’t discuss pents much. But he did teach 1-2-3-5 on fast moving changes.

Lester young’s use of pentatonics must have deeply influenced bird. That first phrase of Dewey square is Lester young-ish


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[pamosmusic]

Also some thread cross pollination. Lady Be Good uses that iv minor but also the #iv diminished in the B section, both serving the same purpose.

Christians Four And Back Cinematic Universe

[Christian Miller]

it's yardbird suite with a LBG bridge.

That makes more sense….


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[pamosmusic]

That makes more sense….


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I mean … they both make sense, no?
Lady Be Good is pretty doggone close.

[Christian Miller]

I mean … they both make sense, no?
Lady Be Good is pretty doggone close.

LBG is more like

I IV7 I V7

You wouldn’t tend to play II7

I mentioned it because Bird makes a feature of that II7, using the A train chord - Eb+ on F7 in this case (F9#11 overall.)

He liked that sound.

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[pauln]

...more definition queries...

Triads
- does this include inversions?
- does this include rootless extensions?
- does this include any three non-enharmonic notes?

Chord Tones
- does this include nonfunctional chords?
- does this include the extended/altered notes of a chord?

[pamosmusic]

...more definition queries...

Triads
- does this include inversions?
- does this include rootless extensions?
- does this include any three non-enharmonic notes?

Chord Tones
- does this include nonfunctional chords?
- does this include the extended/altered notes of a chord?

yes
yes
probably not

yes
probably