Don Mock's Melodic Minor Revealed

**richb2** · 05-16-2010, 10:07 PM

Someone up here recommended this free book. It is great and exactly what i wanted to know. The only thing is I can't hear it. I really need to hear some examples of the melodic minor in use over the different chord subs. Without this I am just playing notes, without an understanding. Is there an audio that goes with Mock's book or is there some other way to learn this?

**monk** · 05-16-2010, 10:45 PM

Don's book is available with a CD.If you downloaded it for free then it's a bootleg.

Theft of intellectual property has already been discussed on this forum so I won't go into it again.

Man up and go buy the book. You'll not only support the work of an excellent dedicated educator but also a damn fine guy.
Regards,
monk

**princeplanet** · 05-17-2010, 12:37 AM

^^^ What he said. Anything that you'll spend months or years learning from is worth paying for, dontcha think? Hearing the cd that comes with it will make all the difference.

**richb2** · 05-17-2010, 04:43 AM

"If you downloaded it for free then it's a bootleg."

That is not my understanding of a bootleg. I can give numerous examples of books and transcriptions of music on the internet placed there for free by their authors.

Hey, I have no problem buying the book. I was under the impression that it was in the public domain? I just found and ordered it on Amazon. I sure hope it comes with a CD since this will make all the difference.

Until it ships, why does he have both the melodic minor scales and the mm arpeggios as two separate things? And I really don't understand the "master position" thing. Within in each master position he shows different fingering. For example on page 15 he shows example 12C and examples 12 D. 12C is over a cmaj7(#5) chord while 12D is over a D7. I understand what Harmonization is. What he says is "remember since all of the chords are built from the A mm scale, then the scale can be played over any of these chords".

I thought that there are 5 positions for the diatonic scale (for example) in each key. But he shows examples 12 a and 12 b both being at the 5th fret?

jeffstocksmusic · 05-17-2010, 08:47 AM

It sounds like you are asking us why an author would choose to present material in a certain way as opposed to our take on using the MM scale. Is that correct? If so, I would email Don and ask. I have swapped emails with him in the past and found him to be a very cool guy.

Don Mock Guitar - Home

**JohnW400** · 05-17-2010, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by richb2

I thought that there are 5 positions for the diatonic scale (for example) in each key. But he shows examples 12 a and 12 b both being at the 5th fret?

Technically there are as many scale fingerings as you have fingers and strings. I think Jimmy Bruno teaches 5 or 6. I heard Bob DeVos uses 12. Harry Leahey used to teach 8. I think Dennis Sandole also taught 8.

Starting on the 6th string you can start the scale of of each finger and have 4 different fingerings per string

1st/6th 2nd/6th 3rd/6th 4th/6th

Then the 5th srting with each finger

1/5 2/5 3/5 4/5

Some even go to the 4th string but I've only found 1/4 useful as 2/4-4/4 already get covered by the 6th string and 5th sring scale in th esecond octave

There are many reasons to learn them but the biggest one is that it helps you visualize chords that exist in one fingering that may not exist in another.

The other is that it helps to elimante awkward jumps or changes in fingering. If you know all your scales, modes and arps starting on every finger then you'll never have to worry about what finger you land on. You'll never box yourself into a corner that you can't easliy get out of.

**monk** · 05-17-2010, 12:30 PM

Don has some excellent free offerings online.

Here:
Free online guitar lessons, webinars, DVD and digital downloads for guitar and bass.

and here:
The Official Mike Bloomfield Web Site

A simple check of the copyright date inside the title page will reveal whether or not a book is in public domain.

Regards,
monk

**nomelite** · 05-17-2010, 07:13 PM

Hey Rich this is rgalvez from the TF forum. Im glad you found this book . Don Mock is one of the best educators of course. enjoy!

**richb2** · 05-17-2010, 10:15 PM

Hey Roberto. How's it going? The wife and I booked a flight to your part of the world, Buenos Aires, for the end of August. I should have considered Lima! Damn! I have been finding very little to comment on at that other forum of ours. Have you been to Argentina? I bought the Professional version of the Mock book because the binding allows you to keep the pages open. Do you use the mm?

**nomelite** · 05-18-2010, 11:40 AM

I will send you a private email with some Buenos Aires details..cheers.
I'm not using melodic minor yet, but I'm practicing with Don's Rhythm Chops DVD which is excellent.

**richb2** · 05-25-2010, 06:11 PM

OK guys. I went out and spent about $22 on the Mock book. Now can someone answer a basic question for me? He talks about the Arpeggios From Melodic Minor. What I think he is doing is harmoning the notes of the MM scale, and then showing how to arpeggiate on the resulting chords. These arpeggios, I think, are standard arpeggios and have nothing to do with the MM (other than the harmonization I mentioned).

The chords that he has arpeggiated are just the harmonized notes of the MM scale. Am I missng something here? How will knowing what chords correspond to the harmonized notes help me imrprovise?

jeffstocksmusic · 05-25-2010, 08:13 PM

Rich,

There is nothing mysterious about the melodic minor scale. It is just a major scale w/ a flatted 3rd--a specific set of intervals that when played have a certain sound. The notes, when harmonized, form a set of chords diatonic and specific to that scale, just like the major scale produces a set of chords diatonic and specific to that scale.

There are triads and four-note arpeggios based on harmonizing the scale that have a certain sound and shape. Some are identical or slightly different than 'standard arpeggios' (I assume that means major scale theory?). There are 'normal' uses for the scale as a substitute for 'normal' scales and uses very specific to certain types of harmony. There are modes which don't have formal names but are often given names which have become convention (lydian dominant, for example). The same rules apply for the harmonic minor and harmonic major scales. Just a specific set of intervals that have a certain sound and produce a certain set of chords when harmonized in 3rds (or other intervals). They also contain 'standard arpeggios' and triads starting from certain notes.

Mock isn't speaking crazy gibberish in his book (other than the cheesy spy-type costumes). He is simply laying out the scale, some chords built from the scale, and some lines. Nothing more, nothing less. If you just got the book, why not just go through the exercises and let your ears and hands catch up? Sorry to be blunt, but the book is really not to be feared. It is just another sound to be added to your pool of sounds.

**richb2** · 05-25-2010, 10:28 PM

JeffStock, there is no fear. Rather I like to understand what the heck I am doing. I emailed the same question to Don Mock himself, and got back this answer. The man is definately an honorable dude.

Thanks for the great question Rich.
The point of the arpeggio section of the book is to learn the seven harmonized chords/arps that live in melodic minor. If you already know the arpeggios from the major scale.....major7, minor7, dominant7 and min7b5, then you only need to learn two more to have the ability to play the harmonized melodic minor scale in arps. The two are the I chord - minmaj7 and the III chord, maj7#5.
By knowing the row of arps in melodic minor, you can create millions of interesting lines by combining arps. You don't want to play long two octave arpeggios, but rather short 3-4 note phrases of one shifting to another. If you are soloing over an altered G7 chord, for example, you can use the Ab melodic minor and it's arpeggios; Abminmaj7, Bbm7, Bmaj7#5, Dd7, Eb7, Fm7b5 and Gm7b5. A lot of interesting sounds are available with those arps. But it's all about inventing lines that are made up of mixing the ars.
The master positions show how you can play all seven arpeggios in one general location on the fingerboard.
Thanks, -Don Mock

So I gather that I can not only play the MM up 1/2 step, but also play arps made of those chords which are harmonized to it. This is a revelation, to me. Although I must say that most jazz standards change chords every measure or so. So who has time to arpeggiate? I barely have time to play a note or two from the MM.

**nomelite** · 05-25-2010, 10:55 PM

again, Don Mock is an excellent educator and a really nice guy.

**wizard3739** · 05-25-2010, 11:39 PM

Yup! Don is a really nice guy and an excellent teacher. He is one of the major contributors to the G.I.T. guitar education system.

wiz

**FatJeff** · 05-26-2010, 12:30 AM

I got this book because of this thread too, and am just getting into the scales in 5 positions (very beginning of the book). It seems like a pretty decent book so far.

Interestingly, I recently derived the altered scale fingerings and Lydian dominant scale fingerings by myself, based on the 5 Shapes that I know from Jimmy Bruno's teachings. (Shh! Don't let Jimmy know I'm thinking modes and scales!) I was taking the "modal" approach that Don talks about - learning different fingerings for the different modes of the melodic minor scale (which I already knew how to play). Anyway, I had completed writing out the fingerings for the altered scale in the 5 different positions, and was about halfway through the Lydian dominant fingerings, when it dawned on me that the two were exactly the same, just shifted up or down the fretboard, and I was just re-inventing the wheel I just invented. Which totally makes sense, since the two are just "modes" of each other - and I friggin' knew that before I started this. But I have a thick skull and that simple truth didn't really sink in until I figured it out myself.

I just re-read this section of the Mock book and NOW it makes a lot of sense!

"...two approaches you're faced with when dealing with different scales. The 'modal' approach would have you memorize the D7b5 sound as a new scale or mode. Even though you are still playing A melodic minor, you would learn it starting on "D" as a different scale with a different name.

In fact, all seven notes of the melodic minor scale become root with the modal approach, which forces ou to think there are seven new scales (and names) to learn. Using the 'key center' approach you simply superimpose your original A melodic scale over the D7 (or the many other possible chords it works over). It's not necessary to think of seven separate scales. The trade-off...is that you must become proficient at controlling the scale well enough to play lines that reflect the sound of the chord you are superimposing it over. It also requires a good knowledge of chord and arpeggio substitution."

This is exactly what Emily Remler talks about on her "Hot Licks" DVD. This is cool*.

I am finding that as I am getting more used to the sound of the melodic minor scale, it's starting to get ingrained into my fingers and ears, and really starting to flow out of me a lot easier than at first. I'm pretty confident that in the not-so-distant future I'll be able to play this thing in different contexts (superimposing over different chords) by ear, rather than relying on specific patterns, much as I do with the major scale today. I guess that's the point, right?

* And by cool, I mean totally sweet! The Official Ninja Webpage: REAL Ultimate Power!!!!

**richb2** · 05-26-2010, 08:34 AM

Glad to hear that you are on the same journey as me at the same time.

"...two approaches you're faced with when dealing with different scales. The 'modal' approach would have you memorize the D7b5 sound as a new scale or mode. Even though you are still playing A melodic minor, you would learn it starting on "D" as a different scale with a different name."

I suspect what he is talking about here is playing the A mm, but playing it at the 5th of A, or at the Bb, or down a minor third? Or is he talking about playing the A mm (in the stanrd I position) and just starting on the D, or on the Bb, and thinking about it as those being the roots? I guess getting to the chord subs and learning the arpeggios of those to play over the A, is a step beyond where I should be.

jeffstocksmusic · 05-26-2010, 08:49 AM

I suspect what he is talking about here is playing the A mm, but playing it at the 5th of A, or at the Bb, or down a minor third? Or is he talking about playing the A mm (in the stanrd I position) and just starting on the D, or on the Bb, and thinking about it as those being the roots? I guess getting to the chord subs and learning the arpeggios of those to play over the A, is a step beyond where I should be.

Do you think of D Dorian as the D Dorian scale (r, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7) or the C major scale starting on the 'D' note? They are the same thing but two ways of looking at it, which is what Don is talking about with the melodic minor scale. You could also break down the intervalic relationship in whole or half steps or think of the modes as other scales w/ altered notes. That is at least 4 ways of thinking of the scale and its modes.

Which method is best? Whichever method works for you. It is impossible for anyone to tell you which will make the most sense to you. Ultimately, you will get to a place where it is just another sound to bring out a certain sound over certain chords, no different than major or pentatonic.

BTW>>If you want an intense study of the usage of the melodic minor, check out any of the instructional material that John Stowell has released. I would wager there is no one that has raised the use of this scale to such an art.

**FatJeff** · 05-26-2010, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by jeffstocksmusic

Do you think of D Dorian as the D Dorian scale (r, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7) or the C major scale starting on the 'D' note? They are the same thing but two ways of looking at it, which is what Don is talking about with the melodic minor scale. You could also break down the intervalic relationship in whole or half steps or think of the modes as other scales w/ altered notes. That is at least 4 ways of thinking of the scale and its modes.

Which method is best? Whichever method works for you. It is impossible for anyone to tell you which will make the most sense to you. Ultimately, you will get to a place where it is just another sound to bring out a certain sound over certain chords, no different than major or pentatonic.

Yep, that's what I was talking about - when forced to actually "think" of the D Dorian scale, I think of a scale starting on D that is different than the C major scale. But when I play, because I've drilled these in the past, I don't think "I'm playing D Dorian right now"...instead, the sound just comes out of my hands, and I just use my ears to guide my fingers to the right frets, no matter which scale degree I started on. It's because I know what Dorian sounds like.

I need to work on getting the melodic minor sound (and its various inversions/modes) into my ears in the same way.

Originally Posted by jeffstocksmusic

BTW>>If you want an intense study of the usage of the melodic minor, check out any of the instructional material that John Stowell has released. I would wager there is no one that has raised the use of this scale to such an art.

His slim volume on jazz guitar improv talks about this stuff in depth, and it's quite a challenging book! I went through it once but I was not ready for it yet. I think I'll revisit after a few weeks of soaking in the Mock material.

**fep** · 05-26-2010, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Don Mock

By knowing the row of arps in melodic minor, you can create millions of interesting lines by combining arps. You don't want to play long two octave arpeggios, but rather short 3-4 note phrases of one shifting to another. If you are soloing over an altered G7 chord, for example, you can use the Ab melodic minor and it's arpeggios; Abminmaj7, Bbm7, Bmaj7#5, Dd7, Eb7, Fm7b5 and Gm7b5. A lot of interesting sounds are available with those arps. But it's all about inventing lines that are made up of mixing the ars.

That is so cool that Don Mock responded to you. I have a couple of his DVDs and I think he is a great instructor.

In his DVD "The Blues from Rock to Jazz" he talks about using various arps over a static chord to come up with interesting lines, and he plays some great examples on that DVD.

I don't want to steal his lines so I made up some of my own (not as good as his though). So here are three phrases of the kind of thing he's talking about... this is over a C7 chord; in the box text I wrote in the arpeggio I was thinking as I play the line. I've also attached an mp3 of me playing that line over a cheesy BIAB backing track. Hope this helps...

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 05-26-2010, 10:35 AM

You're right, the backing track was pretty cheesy. You need to hang out with a better class of musician!

**derek** · 05-26-2010, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by fep

That is so cool that Don Mock responded to you. I have a couple of his DVDs and I think he is a great instructor.

In his DVD "The Blues from Rock to Jazz" he talks about using various arps over a static chord to come up with interesting lines, and he plays some great examples on that DVD.

I don't want to steal his lines so I made up some of my own (not as good as his though). So here are three phrases of the kind of thing he's talking about... this is over a C7 chord; in the box text I wrote in the arpeggio I was thinking as I play the line. I've also attached an mp3 of me playing that line over a cheesy BIAB backing track. Hope this helps...

Yeah, cheese factor was pretty high, but really good example of what Don is talking about in that vid fep. Nicely done man, and very accessible. Thanks for posting it.

**fep** · 05-26-2010, 02:18 PM

Yes, I like my backing tracks with extra cheese...

**richb2** · 05-27-2010, 05:35 PM

Explain something to me. In the book Mock harmonizes nthe mm scale and then says that you can play the arps of those chords mixed in with the mm.

Thanks for the great question Rich.
The point of the arpeggio section of the book is to learn the seven harmonized chords/arps that live in melodic minor. If you already know the arpeggios from the major scale.....major7, minor7, dominant7 and min7b5, then you only need to learn two more to have the ability to play the harmonized melodic minor scale in arps. The two are the I chord - minmaj7 and the III chord, maj7#5.
By knowing the row of arps in melodic minor, you can create millions of interesting lines by combining arps. You don't want to play long two octave arpeggios, but rather short 3-4 note phrases of one shifting to another. If you are soloing over an altered G7 chord, for example, you can use the Ab melodic minor and it's arpeggios; Abminmaj7, Bbm7, Bmaj7#5, Dd7, Eb7, Fm7b5 and Gm7b5. A lot of interesting sounds are available with those arps. But it's all about inventing lines that are made up of mixing the ars.
The master positions show how you can play all seven arpeggios in one general location on the fingerboard.
Thanks, -Don Mock

So Don is saying that over an altered G7 I can play the Ab mm or the arp of one of its harmonized chords. But Remler, if you watch her videos, says you either play a Ab mm or a D mm, depending on if the chrod resolves. Where does Don stand on the 5th of the key notion? And how can you switcheroo the way you are thinking if you only have a measure (till you go back to a minor chord or a maj7 chord, etc) to improvise with that mm or mm arpeggio?

jeffstocksmusic · 05-27-2010, 08:57 PM

[QUOTE]So Don is saying that over an altered G7 I can play the Ab mm or the arp of one of its harmonized chords. But Remler, if you watch her videos, says you either play a Ab mm or a D mm, depending on if the chrod resolves. Where does Don stand on the 5th of the key notion? QUOTE]

The D melodic minor will give you one tension over the G7, the b5. The Ab melodic minor will give you all available tensions (b9, #9, b5, #5). You can use whichever you want, including the arpeggios of each. It depends on how much tension you want in your lines. It has been years since I worked through that book, but I am fairly sure he has tons of lines based on the melodic minor built from the 5th (commonly called 'lydian dominant'). For reference, playing the melodic minor 1/2 step from the dominant chord is commonly called 'diminished whole tone'. These aren't legit names but are in common usage.

And how can you switcheroo the way you are thinking if you only have a measure (till you go back to a minor chord or a maj7 chord, etc) to improvise with that mm or mm arpeggio?[/

Triad pairs are a great way to get around this issue, specifically playing the two major triads that are in the melodic minor (the 4th and 5th scale degrees). Example would be over a G7, playing the Ab melodic minor, you would play Eb and Db major triads resolving to a C major triad (or D major for a lydian sound). This a very basic example but hopefully it will get you thinking. Google 'triad pairs' and you will find tons. They are extremely common in more modern improv vocabulary.

If you want to get a little more advanced, you could build 6-note scales from triad pairs. Example above would be Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb. These are commonly called hexatonics. There are literally zillions of them.

You could also play the pentatonic scales in the melodic minor. The formula I like to use is building a minor pentatonic scale from the b3 of the dominant chord...Bb minor pent over G7 resolving to either A minor pent for the C chord (or B minor pent for a lydian sound).

Lots of options. I like to reduce the material to more angular and 'easier' to use chunks. That is just my approach, mostly because I want to avoid sounding scalar...plus I am not very smart and can't remember a ton of stuff.

You could burn through the scale at light speed or just play a couple of notes to imply the scale, if that is what moves you. Whatever you hear, that is what you should pursue.