problem in analysing some chord scales (A13#9)

[shoome]

hey there,
im working on a piece at the moment, that is written in the key of Bb and there is one part where it goes: | Bbmaj7 | Bb6 | A13#9 | A7(#9#5) | Dmaj7 |

So I know this is obviously a walk from the maj7 of Bb (A) over the 6 (G) to a chromatic approach (13 of A -> F#, #5 -> F) targeting the major 3rd of the Dmaj7 resolving in A G F# F. So far so good... the problem is, when I try to find the matching chord scales regarding all chords i get stuck at the A13#9 ... if I'm not totally mistaken it's A - C - C# - E - F# - G and I am really not finding any kind of scale that fits those notes.

The closest one i was able to find would be C# harmonic minor (C# - D# - E - F# - G# - A - C). Everything looks quiet good except for the G#... So the question is, would it be "correct" to call the chord-regarding scale some sort of "Lydian #2 #7" (since lydian #2 should the 6th harmonic minor mode?) or is there a more elegant way or some sort of better fitting scale ?

Thank you for any kind of help...

Schumi


p.s. I know this is not for "improvising" over the tune, since I prefer to go for an arpeggiated approach or anything like that to this part of the tune. It's just for analysis


//edit: ooops... sorry for choosing "books" as category...

[fep]

Diminished Scale works well.

This one A Bb C C# Eb E F# G

[FatJeff]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the #9 typically used with a natural 13? My understanding is that the 13th on a dominant is a "consonant" sound, whereas #9 is definitely a "dissonant" - not having a guitar in my hands, how does it sound?

[jeffstocksmusic]

I would probably think of it is a chord from the A half whole diminished scale and would very likely consider the major (or minor) triads from that scale.

One thing I have been playing w/ lately is using ideas from the Harmonic Major scale. I would probably play ideas using Gmin and F# min triads over A7. You get some pretty interesting lines -- basically a b9sus chord w/ a natural 13.

[mr. beaumont]

should be fine, fatjeff.I think of #9's as "bluesy" sounding, not necessarily dissonant, so in the case of having the 13, we just gotta look at the interval created there-- the 13th on that A chord will be an F#, the raised ninth will be a C. That flat fifth in the chord will sound cool in the chromatic movement in the song, since in the next bar the chord has a raised fifth. It's gonna be full of tension with some movement inside, and probably sound pretty hip.

[jeffstocksmusic]

#9 typically used with a natural 13

I associate this sound with Jim Hall and John Stowell. It is little out because it is basically two tritones (G/C# and F#/C) but it isn't terribly crazy. I have 'borrowed' a lot of my voicings for this chord from John Stowell...always a good guy to 'borrow' from.

[JohnW400]

Joe Pass and Jim Hall use(d) it all the time. Usually omiting the root. The way they normally voiced it is:

x x 5 6 7 8 (G C# F# Bx)

[Aristotle]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is the #9 typically used with a natural 13? My understanding is that the 13th on a dominant is a "consonant" sound, whereas #9 is definitely a "dissonant" - not having a guitar in my hands, how does it sound?

It sounds a lot like the fourth measure Stevie Wonder's song, "You are the sunshine of my life." It's the chord in the measure after the word, "life."

[shoome]

thank you all for those replies helped me alot, since I totally forgot to look for HW / WH scales ...

@FatJeff: I don't think that a fully outplaied A13#9 (not like pass etc plaied it) is that often to be seen and in this piece i think its mostly intended to work with the chromatic approach, wich sounds pretty modern but very cool ;-)

@jeffstocksmusic: funny you mention john stowell as i'm a big fan of him and just recently got me a höfner verythin john stowell

[rlemos]

Hi, As already mentioned, the A diminished scale works (half-step whole step) for the A13#9. The only "problem" with this scale is the additional harmonic complexity of the added b9 and b5 tones to an already complex chord (13#9). Another approach is to use a hexatonic scale: C C# E F# G A. This scale has 6 notes and adds no further complexity to the already complex chord. Another way to think about this chord is superimposing 2 simple triads over the chord--a C triad (C E G) and a Fm (F# A C#). You can play these notes as a hexatonic scale or simply play off the two arpeggios. These two arpeggios have all the notes of the chord. What I would do is use a scale from my book--the A7#9 Pentatonic Scale. It does not include the 13th tone but still captures the essence of the chord. This scale is also easy to play, especially if the tempo is fast. Also, you always have the option of adding the 13th to this scale at any time. Hope this helps. Ron

[Henry Mars]

Try the E whole tone diminished scale.

[Zhivago]

You could use a mixolydian scale with a raised 9th...

That scale fits gooooooood !

[bako]

rlemos,

C Db (C#) E G A

Is that the pentatonic you mean?

In addition to John's voicing a tritone up or down

X X 11 12 13 14-----------C# G Bx F#

or

X 4 5 5 7 x --------------C# G Bx F#

[rlemos]

Hello Bako,

Yes, you are correct. In Chapter 23 of my book I call this the Mixolydian #9 Pentatonic Scale. In the example in this post, for the A13#9 an option is the A Mixolydian #9 Pentatonic Scale (A C Db/C# E G). In my book I describe 5 modes. All modes use the 2-notes-per-string approach. Modes are essentially 5 positions on the guitar where you can play this scale. The Mode name (Mode I, Mode bIII, Mode III, Mode V, Mode bVII) identifies which scale step to start with on the 6th string. For example Mode I of the A Mixolydian #9 Pentatonic Scale would go:

6th string: A C
5th string: C#E
4th string: G A
3rd string: C C#
2nd string: E G
1rst string: A C

Of course anyone could map out the other 4 modes on their own.

This is really a great scale to use on many songs including blues, rock (especially the Hendrix 7#9 chord) and jazz. Pentatonics are great choices for soloing because of the 2-notes-per-string feature and you can't hit a bad note.

It is all a matter of taste. The other recommendation in this post are also great to consider. Ron

[shoome]

Thank You all for those great answers! Keep them coming if u like, i just wanted to thank you and tell you, that all of your answers AND chord shapes helped me alot on that song in improvising AND comping...
I really love the sound of the E-Wholetone-diminished and A-Halftone/wholeton-symmetrical, but all the other suggestions work pretty good as well! One thing i really fell in love is going from an E-Wholetone-diminished scale for the A13#9 to a Gm7b5 arpeggio over the A7(#5#9) (lent from A# melodic minor)...

[Reg]

Hey shoome... The Bb sounds like bVI, and V to I. The F# of A13 going to F natural or b13 usually goes to E of Dmaj.9. It's a pretty standard line cliche, A to G to F# to F to E. (Bbmaj is Lyd) You can play an altered style, with emphasis on the line cliche over the V chord and Dmaj 9 (Ionian) or what ever you want to play over I. The #9 on A13 is just a blue note. Sometimes #9 is added to Harmonic maj. ( A13#9 would be the 5th degree). When you solo over tunes you don't just play the scale or vertical collection of notes for chords. You can have fun on the weak side of rhythmic pulse. I gotsto go to my gig... Best Reg

[timscarey]

Its like the 9th measure of chega de saudage by jobim. That kind of movment is very common in brazilian guitar. It creates a nice little downward motion on the 2nd string...
A-g-f#-f- resolving to the e as the 9th of the dmaj chord. In the jobim tune its a dmin though. Me personally? Id play Bb maj then A dom (scalewise) targeting the guiding line on the 2nd string.... or.... id just avoid those notes altogether and just think....

Bb major...... Dharmonic minor...... Dmajor.