Nuages soloing?

[deacon Mark]

I have not done this tune much in years past but really have the bug for it lately. Just wondering what most use for soloing in terms of scales. I tend not to think too much about scales although I know them and modes. I go to arps and tensions like Pass. The change for Am7b5 to D7b9 is the one that seems to go in different directions. My ear hears this as almost a G harmonic minor. To me that sounds the best and most fluid going to the GMaj the chord next. Yet in the context the f natural sounds ok to my ears.

Also this tune is a ballad but really, I like it taken a bit fast sometimes at 120bpm. Getting around 90 it seems to encourage wild playing like the gypsy. tune it is but gets a bit less driving and I cannot feel the beat as strong. I think the real authentic Gypsy players really manage to play around with time and in there own group settings know where everyone is in the tune. I can get bit lost when this happens.

[mr. beaumont]

I have not done this tune much in years past but really have the bug for it lately. Just wondering what most use for soloing in terms of scales. I tend not to think too much about scales although I know them and modes. I go to arps and tensions like Pass. The change for Am7b5 to D7b9 is the one that seems to go in different directions. My ear hears this as almost a G harmonic minor. To me that sounds the best and most fluid going to the GMaj the chord next. Yet in the context the f natural sounds ok to my ears.

Also this tune is a ballad but really, I like it taken a bit fast sometimes at 120bpm. Getting around 90 it seems to encourage wild playing like the gypsy. tune it is but gets a bit less driving and I cannot feel the beat as strong. I think the real authentic Gypsy players really manage to play around with time and in there own group settings know where everyone is in the tune. I can get bit lost when this happens.

Yeah, I can see that...I just think Eb7 to D7(b9) to G. It's pretty bluesy, actually, the whole tune. Or a Bb blues lick to a D7 to G...

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

What is the question? What are the chord scales for a minor II-V?

It looks like that is the question.

[Jimmy Smith]

They cover it thoroughly here. Although the context is different because this is going to a minor 1, Nuages goes to the major 1.

[Christian Miller]

Gypsy jazz players spend a lot of time working on arpeggios of the chords and adding chromatic embellishments.

it’s really not unusual to have a minor ii V move to a major I. Night and Day, all the things and what is this thing called love are good examples.

So the chords in the original are…

Eb7 D7b9 G

Which are more old school and bluesy as Jeff says.

I like quoting and developing the melody line. Tbh the melody is my first call when trying to work out how to solo on a tune these days. There’s a lot you can learn from just that. There’s that lovely descending chromatic scale

Theoretically, the Eb7 is a sort of a sub (though it is common in classical music) for Am7b5. Barry Harris regarded it as completely interchangeable so one goes over the other.

if you want to play the Eb7, Eb7#11 sounds great there and I also like the Bbm(maj7) on it, or the Eb whole tone scale. A similar move pops up in a few old standards- look out for it.

The D7b9 typically takes an F#o7 arpeggio. Modally, it does kind of move to G harmonic minor there, you are right, or G harmonic major even. (Or the G maj-6 dim scale.)

But don’t sweat the theory too much - focus on learning chord tones and the melody at first is my advice .

[ragman1]

Any book will tell about the 'correct scales', etc, but that's not how you play it. Once the basic tonality is sorted, just find your way. Don't overthink it. If you have any musical sense you'll know what to do.


Bbm - Cm - Bm.

That's the correct tonality. Bbm is the ii of Eb9, Cm will give you the right notes for Aø/D7b9, and slide down to Bm for the GM7 sound.

[Reg]

Yea... it usually depends on the ensemble. I never really played the tune much. One of the bands I work with now, had it in their book. I remember the 1st time I subbed with them... years ago at a pub, the tune was called... and I kind of made a mess of it, LOL. And of course it was recorded....

The drummers was also a sub, and the ensemble was somewhat rhythmically challenged.... LOL
Anyway... there are other ways to create solos. How you choose what notes to play... usually has harmonic references, which can create different choices. Make an analysis of tune.. you know, with roman numerals, arrows and Tonal targets etc... how else would one approach, when you have the time.

Generally... I like to play tunes different every time, which leads to choices of styles and how the analysis might look. Anyway here's one that I haven't repeated...LOL

[Christian Miller]

There is also Holdsworths version haha

Actually after the synthaxe intro which is heavily reharmonised the solo is over the vanilla changes… which gives a nice and fairly rare chance to hear how Allan handles a very old school standard. And I think he sounds bloody lovely. I must dig into this further.

[Christian Miller]

Yea... it usually depends on the ensemble. I never really played the tune much. One of the bands I work with now, had it in their book. I remember the 1st time I subbed with them... years ago at a pub, the tune was called... and I kind of made a mess of it, LOL. And of course it was recorded....

The drummers was also a sub, and the ensemble was somewhat rhythmically challenged.... LOL
Anyway... there are other ways to create solos. How you choose what notes to play... usually has harmonic references, which can create different choices. Make an analysis of tune.. you know, with roman numerals, arrows and Tonal targets etc... how else would one approach, when you have the time.

Generally... I like to play tunes different every time, which leads to choices of styles and how the analysis might look. Anyway here's one that I haven't repeated...LOL

gypsy jazz mandolin - where have you been all my life?

[ragman1]

This is my fave version of all time.

[rpjazzguitar]

I have not done this tune much in years past but really have the bug for it lately. Just wondering what most use for soloing in terms of scales. I tend not to think too much about scales although I know them and modes. I go to arps and tensions like Pass. The change for Am7b5 to D7b9 is the one that seems to go in different directions. My ear hears this as almost a G harmonic minor. To me that sounds the best and most fluid going to the GMaj the chord next. Yet in the context the f natural sounds ok to my ears.

Also this tune is a ballad but really, I like it taken a bit fast sometimes at 120bpm. Getting around 90 it seems to encourage wild playing like the gypsy. tune it is but gets a bit less driving and I cannot feel the beat as strong. I think the real authentic Gypsy players really manage to play around with time and in there own group settings know where everyone is in the tune. I can get bit lost when this happens.

A couple of thoughts: there are different charts for this tune with different changes. For example, some have the first chord as Bbm6, and others have Bbm7. And so on. A lot of differences.

So, I start thinking "generic Bbm". That gives 1 2 b3 4 5. Then, G Ab A Bb may all work, so I pay no attention to the exact scale and try to make melody that fits the harmony I'm hearing on the bandstand. Of course, I'm not suggesting that anybody else do this <g>. At that point I won't know which minor scale, if any, I'm playing.

D7 or D7b9 or -- a iim7b5 V7b9 -- then to G6. So there, I know that Bbm6 is rootless Eb9 and the harmony is going, roughly speaking, from Eb dominant to D dominant. So, I can drop the phrase I played on Bbm6 by a half step and adjust those few notes that might need adjustment. Or, to avoid that obvious half step movement, I might think "how about a minor third higher" and do something with that. Etc.

For G6, I might think about subbing in a Bm7 or similar, thinking that it might give me a little more consistency with the Bbm voicing.

Later, there are some V7 im and some cycle of fifth ideas. Which should be pretty familiar.

[GuyBoden]

There is also Holdsworths version haha

Actually after the synthaxe intro which is heavily reharmonised the solo is over the vanilla changes… which gives a nice and fairly rare chance to hear how Allan handles a very old school standard. And I think he sounds bloody lovely. I must dig into this further.

I now have problems listening to them old very dated Oberheim synth module sounds, but yes, his guitar tone on this recording is superb in my opinion too. He plays the changes and doesn't play the changes at the same time, maybe due to his Coltrane influence, just guessing based on articles I've read over the years.

[Christian Miller]

I now have problems listening to them old very dated Oberheim synth module sounds, but yes, his guitar tone on this recording is superb in my opinion too. He plays the changes and doesn't play the changes at the same time, maybe due to his Coltrane influence, just guessing based on articles I've read over the years.

I can’t really deal with the synth either.

Gordon Beck deserves a mention as well. Personally I wish Allan had recorded more with upright bass, especially on this album, ah well.

when it comes to soloing approach I always feel Allan may have been a bit more intuitive than people think. Obviously he was a big scales guy but it’s his slower-medium speed stuff that interests me the most, not so much the legato shred (which I think is better understood in fact). I don’t think he actually transcribed Trane that much iirc although he listened to him a lot, so perhaps it’s more in the feeling than the specific note choices. (although Trane is also pretty scaley)

He always seems to come up with such interesting melodic ideas.

[GuyBoden]

Nuages, I've played it slow in a guitar duo in the distant past.

Django's is still the best version to me.

[ragman1]

It's gone quiet here so I might post this. No head, we know what it is and I'm bored with it anyway. I hope the OP isn't around. If you are, don't copy this, you'll lose all your friends :-)

[mr. beaumont]

Might as well post a take too, I did this one last year for my Willie Nelson tribute.

[ragman1]

I was just thinking about that one, Jeff :-)

[ragman1]

Sorry, I must be bored :-)

[alltunes]

Ragman1 has gone visual!

[ragman1]

[grahambop]

I recorded it several years ago on the classical guitar. For soloing I just followed the chord tones really, didn’t think about scales much.

[ragman1]

I didn't know if you wanted to post that but I'm glad you have. I was just listening to it yesterday :-)

[ragman1]

Actually, it's not an easy tune to solo over. It seems simple enough but in practice it's trickier than it looks. I'm sure that's why the OP started the thread.

It's also 'gypsy jazz' rather than the usual American standard jazz which makes it ideal for virtuoso arpeggios (!) but not so good for the usual scalar approach. I see a lot of the replies, including the OP's, were wondering about scales, modes, and so on.

Personally, I tend to see it as a series of 'sound blocks' which is why I suggested that he just thought of Bbm-Cm-Bm-% for the first 4 bars. I don't know if he saw the light on that or whether he's still struggling with scales and modes. The thing about treating it as sound blocks is that, having established them, they can be enhanced with colour notes as you go to provide interest.

[mr. beaumont]

Actually, it's not an easy tune to solo over.

I would agree. Not many places of rest in it, it's kind of always rolling along forward...like a cloud across the sky.

[ragman1]

I hate these guys :-)