Learning Jazz Improvisation - "Imitate, Assimilate, Innovate".

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

We've all heard the saying. Does it have merit as far as you are concerned? What does it mean to you?

More specifically - and assuming that the player can pass a level-appropriate "skill barrier exam" prior to digging in (i.e.,scales & arpeggios on most chord qualities):

1. Should the first two activities be executed as serial phases, or worked in parallel? (My vote - in parallel)
2. Since we all know what "Imitate" means (learn to play professional solos note-for-note), and we all know what "Innovate" means (skillfully Improvise), it seems obvious that "Assimilate" is where most of the real jazz study/labor comes in. Do you agree? If so, and given that most people only have so much time to practice, what are the most valuable activities as far as you are concerned?

A short list of activities that are typically taught/recommended for "Assimilate" follow:

1. Practice jazz patterns on "formulae" - your own and those written/transcribed by others,
2. Play jazz exercises - example: enclosures for every chord tone on all chord qualities, one chord at a time. Again, your own and others' exercises,
3. Play well constructed jazz solo etudes,
4. Write and play your own solo etudes,
5. Learn to vary/alter the above - extemporaneously,
6. Start improvising little by little, and keep building up

[grahambop]

I didn’t learn many complete solos (I think I transcribed about a dozen or so, but I never really played them much afterwards). I tended to learn individual phrases and then immediately start using them on tunes I was learning. Eventually it just became natural to change them (e.g. change a major phrase to fit minor, or dominant etc., play them in different keys, on different string groups etc.), this was very much driven by the tunes I wanted to play, rather than any particular system.

Over time I found I was coming up with new ideas, so I guess that was where the ‘assimilate’ was gradually becoming ‘innovate’.

I might not be the best person to ask though, as I said on your other thread I was never systematic about this, it was just ‘learn tunes and dive in’ as far as I was concerned. Never had a plan or exercises or anything like that.

[mr. beaumont]

Learn tunes and dive in works though, because it immediately provides context for all of the stuff you have to work on.

I hate the "list of things to do before playing jazz" stuff because that list never really ends. Just learn songs, listen to tons of jazz, and test/train your ear as much as humanly possible.

Really, the key is the listening, as far as I'm concerned. You'll really never be able to play this music unless jazz completely takes over your listening. It has to be the music that plays in your head, 24-7. If you sit down to type an email, or cut up an onion for dinner, or put air in your tires, or whatever, and you hear "Donna Lee" in your head, then you got a chance

[Kirk Garrett]

Learn tunes and dive in works though, because it immediately provides context for all of the stuff you have to work on.

I hate the "list of things to do before playing jazz" stuff because that list never really ends. Just learn songs, listen to tons of jazz, and test/train your ear as much as humanly possible.

Really, the key is the listening, as far as I'm concerned. You'll really never be able to play this music unless jazz completely takes over your listening. It has to be the music that plays in your head, 24-7. If you sit down to type an email, or cut up an onion for dinner, or put air in your tires, or whatever, and you hear "Donna Lee" in your head, then you got a chance

The list never ends. Correct. If I still flub a triad in a harmonized scale, should I practice harder before moving on to tunes?

NO. But I used to think so.


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[pauln]

Imitate - to follow as a pattern, a model, or example
Assimilate - to incorporate and absorb into the mind
Innovate - to introduce changes, creating new ideas

Order may depend on the primary mode of learning
Imitate Assimilate Innovate by sight (music notation)
Assimilate Imitate Innovate by ear (recordings \ live)

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

I didn’t learn many complete solos (I think I transcribed about a dozen or so, but I never really played them much afterwards). I tended to learn individual phrases and then immediately start using them on tunes I was learning. Eventually it just became natural to change them (e.g. change a major phrase to fit minor, or dominant etc., play them in different keys, on different string groups etc.), this was very much driven by the tunes I wanted to play, rather than any particular system.

Over time I found I was coming up with new ideas, so I guess that was where the ‘assimilate’ was gradually becoming ‘innovate’.

I might not be the best person to ask though, as I said on your other thread I was never systematic about this, it was just ‘learn tunes and dive in’ as far as I was concerned. Never had a plan or exercises or anything like that.

On the contrary, that sounds pretty darned efficient.

Thanks.

[rsclosson]

I read somewhere that Charlie Parker took some time and isolated himself and learned every Lester Young solo he could find record for. At first he sounded a lot like Lester, but soon his own ideas kicked in.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

I read somewhere that Charlie Parker took some time and isolated himself and learned every Lester Young solo he could find record for. At first he sounded a lot like Lester, but soon his own ideas kicked in.

That's believable. Dexter Gordon admitted something similar.

I read the other day that Parker rehearsed the Blues, Rhythm Changes, and Cherokee in all 12 keys daily, and was satisfied that he was thusly prepared for just about anything.

[Kirk Garrett]

I read somewhere that Charlie Parker took some time and isolated himself and learned every Lester Young solo he could find record for. At first he sounded a lot like Lester, but soon his own ideas kicked in.

I’ve heard this about many artists in different fields. Famously, Wes Montgomery learned all of Charlie Christian’s solos, for example.


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[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Thanks a lot for the thoughtful responses gents. My interest at this time is to focus on blues and then rhythm changes - and with decidely bebop oriented language and cliches, etc.

After that, I'll be open to whatever. Chord scales over Blue Bossa, sheets of sound over Impressions, cells and triad pairs over Stella By Starlight, whatever. But I'm dug in for now. For variety I'm working on comping and chord melody on a broader list of tunes/standards.

[AllanAllen]

What blues heads have you learned?

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

What blues heads have you learned?

A few. Do you mean bebop blues? (I grew up playing blues, blues). I like the blues quite a bit more than Cole Porter, although I think Porter is just fine.

[AllanAllen]

A few. Do you mean bebop blues? (I grew up playing blues, blues). I like the blues quite a bit more than Cole Porter, although I think Porter is just fine.

Yeah like jazz blues. Bags Groove, Chitlins Con Carne, Glide On, Blues in the closet, Sandu, Tenor Madness, Blue Monk, Watermelon Man, even hard bop stuff like Moanin’ Is essentially just a blues.

It’s an easy way to get a feel for the language since you already know the form.

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[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Yeah like jazz blues. Bags Groove, Chitlins Con Carne, Glide On, Blues in the closet, Sandu, Tenor Madness, Blue Monk, Watermelon Man, even hard bop stuff like Moanin’ Is essentially just a blues.

It’s an easy way to get a feel for the language since you already know the form.

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Sure. Bags Groove, Chitlins Con Carne, Watermelon Man. Plus Freddie Freeloader, All Blues So What/Impressions (post-bop though, need more bop).

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

I am working with a few more chords than those Miles tunes, though. (I, IV, #IVdim, VI, II, V chords)

[pauln]

If you are doing imitation from a chart, score, notation, diagram, TAB, or
other visual manifestation of the musical object, an assimilation is going
to be incomplete until after you've heard yourself playing it a few times.

Now some assimilation must occur prior to imitation if you learn by ear,
although that assimilation will also be incomplete until you have played
it a few times because in both cases the quality control must come from
comparison of what you played to what you intended to play. That'll be
a direct comparative process when learning by ear because the original
and the copy imitation are aural, more indirect & abstract when playing
by sight because the original and copy imitation comprise unlike modes.

I place the ear at the very top of all things jazz, nothing is stronger, faster,
or more effective. So as far as which of the six activities you ask are most
valuable (Jazz improvisation context) I would ask, "Which ones absolutely
require doing it by ear? Any that don't, can you figure out a way they do?"

[rsclosson]

I have also been concentrating on learning heads and progressions of lots of tunes. I try to do it as much by ear as possible, with a lead sheet handy for reference. Joe Pass often advocated learning songs as a great way to develop improv skills. Once I get comfortable with the song, I try to play it in lots of different positions. Coupled with the technical exercises, it seems to be a great way to develop your ears and fingers; at least it has been good for me.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

I have also been concentrating on learning heads and progressions of lots of tunes. I try to do it as much by ear as possible, with a lead sheet handy for reference. Joe Pass often advocated learning songs as a great way to develop improv skills. Once I get comfortable with the song, I try to play it in lots of different positions. Coupled with the technical exercises, it seems to be a great way to develop your ears and fingers; at least it has been good for me.

Agreed. Joe instructed others to "play melodies" when improvising - not just thoughtless note streams.

Still, unless one wishes to be kind of a minimalist improviser, there has to be more than practicing heads. Joe frequently ripped off explosive and extensive melodic outbursts.

There is a difference between strolling around the track, and running a 400 meter hurdle race.

[rsclosson]

Agreed. Joe instructed others to "play melodies" when improvising - not just thoughtless note streams.

Still, unless one wishes to be kind of a minimalist improviser, there has to be more than practicing heads. Joe frequently ripped off explosive and extensive melodic outbursts.

There is a difference between strolling around the track, and running a 400 meter hurdle race.

Also agreed. That is why I mix exercises in with my practice routine

[mr. beaumont]

Good fast playing still has a melodic contour...that's what makes it good.

Take a Parker line, there might be 20 something notes...but there are important notes that define the shape of the line. It makes even a lightning fast run "singable." Those notes are touchstones...

So melodic playing doesn't just have to be minimal. Just memorable.

[Jimmy Smith]

I also prefer to work from the tune down on what I need to practice. Am I arranging the head well? Am I playing with good feel? Am I soloing good enough? Do I have enough chord melody throughout the tune? Etc. Then I can get an accurate idea of what exercises I should prioritize.

For melody, practice others' solos or riffs then try to make your solos sound like that. Practice the scales, arps, and intervals to the chords in time. Next, string together phrases which have a start and end.

[John A.]

Sure. Bags Groove, Chitlins Con Carne, Watermelon Man. Plus Freddie Freeloader, All Blues So What/Impressions (post-bop though, need more bop).

I'd suggest adding some actual bop blues heads to that, such as Au Privave, Now's the TIme, Billie's Bounce, or Cool Blues. As with other Parker heads, each is a lesson unto itself about bebop phrasing and devices.

[grahambop]

It’s worth learning a reasonable number of those complicated bebop heads, they are like brilliant one-chorus solo exercises and you’ll get a lot of harmonic (and rhythmic - easy to overlook this) vocabulary from them. Also they force you to find technical solutions to fingering tricky bop lines on the guitar (which wasn’t really designed for it, in my opinion!).

I haven’t learned all that many myself, but just doing a few like Donna Lee or Confirmation taught me a lot. As for rhythmic challenges, try Oleo, I’m still not sure I’ve got that one right!

[grahambop]

lol, what he said!

[grahambop]

yeah Au Privave is another one that is surprisingly hard to get the rhythm right.