Building A Jazz Language - Bebop focus, for the moment.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

i second this. There’s also a book - Talk Jazz - by Roni Ben Hur, a well known NYC bop guitarist who studied and recorded with Barry that contains a great syllabus for single note line building taken directly from Barry’s method

seems to be out of print.

[AllanAllen]

Jamey Aebersold Jazz: Product Display

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Jamey Aebersold Jazz: Product Display

Cool, thanks!

[Reg]

I hope you don't think that video is of me, lol. It's Greg Fishman's collaborator, pro jazz guitarist and educator Mike Allemana. He had to sync with Fishman's sax.

He played Halsted Street (Blues) then State Street (Rhythm Changes) Two choruses on the first and one on the second. The book keeps going with a variety of tune types including more blues and rhythm changes. It gets harder and the solos/etudes get longer.

Anyway, these etudes fall into the category of "Imitate" for the student, while Assimilate and Innovate are follow-on steps. Do you see value in "Imitate"? (I do)

Yea I did... sorry. It looked like 30 sec. of playing. And memorized starring at the fretboard etc.

Anyway I still disagree about the approach. But who cares.... Best of luck. Really I hope the approach works great.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Yea I did... sorry. It looked like 30 sec. of playing. And memorized starring at the fretboard etc.

Anyway I still disagree about the approach. But who cares.... Best of luck. Really I hope the approach works great.

That's cool. What do prefer approach wise, if you don't mind sharing.

[Reg]

That's cool. What do prefer approach wise, if you don't mind sharing.

What I've always said.... get your technical skills, chops etc... together and you'll be able to play what ever you want.

You'll not need as much time or practice... and generally your have much better feel and time etc... So when you do copy some other players... it's your choice.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

What I've always said.... get your technical skills, chops etc... together and you'll be able to play what ever you want.

You'll not need as much time or practice... and generally your have much better feel and time etc... So when you do copy some other players... it's your choice.

Right, well the devil is in the details. In other words HOW do you advise that one get their skills and chops together? Other than basic technique of scales, chords, and arpeggios, I'm sure that you are well aware that many jazz educators advise; (1) learning solos, (2) practicing jazz pattern "formulae", (3) building jazz technique through jazz exercises, and (4) applying the above to improvisation on jazz tunes.

How/where is the above advice faulty or wasteful, in your view?

[Lionelsax]

Right, well the devil is in the details. In other words HOW do you advise that one get their skills and chops together? Other than basic technique of scales, chords, and arpeggios, I'm sure that you are well aware that many jazz educators advise; (1) learning solos, (2) practicing jazz pattern "formulae", (3) building jazz technique through jazz exercises, and (4) applying the above to improvisation on jazz tunes.

How/where is the above advice faulty or wasteful, in your view?

I think he talked about timing, how to put the things together with the right articulation no matter the phrases, licks, tricks or whatever you want.
Playing good, the most difficult thing.

[Reg]

Yea... OK.

1) So Yes Scales... and their modes or starting on each degree. All the standard patterns ,1 2 3 4 , 2 3 4 5, 3 4 5 6... etc. And always 2 octaves. of each up and down.

all the standard scales... Maj. and all modes, Melodic and Harmonic minors, Har. Maj. Symmetric scales... dim. etc

Pentatonics... both Maj and Dom. and Blues and bebop and combining blues with Majors and minors.

Then the arpeggios of all those scales... again two octaves, triads, 7th chords, 9ths and 13th. Again all two octaves up and back down.

I also did spider drills... single strings and across up and down.

All these BS drills need to be done at the tempos of most jazz playing start where ever you can.... the learn how to go faster than you can play and still stay in rhythm need to get up to at least 200- 240.

2) Then chords.... again take the time to notate out all chords derived from all scales. and be able to play Chord Patterns that imply the starting chord. Ex. I VI II V's with reference to different Tonal Targets...

Ex. Maj.... I6/9 VI-7 II-7 V7.... which changes with minors bVI and eventually

Maj can become... I 6/9 VI7alt II-7 V7alt. depending on where your playing the actual chords with reference to the Harmonic Rhythm.

This also can be used with improve.... how harmony can organized melodic... improv as compared to
embellishment.

Typically this take more time... most guitarist have difficult time playing fast single notes let alone fast chord... and with rhythmic patterns

3) This should really be first... but for most is just too boring. Get a few drum books and start playing rhythmic patterns on single notes, chords... whatever you can do.

4) Sight Reading... again start with rhythm... drum books and then bring in the notes and chord. The point is to be able to recognize.... groups of notes, patterns. You don't actually read note by note....your always ahead. You need to get past the momentary thing.

5) tunes, chord solos etc... START... learning what musical Forms are and how they works.... the strong and weak rhythmic and tonal organization....

6) Performance Skills... after you develop some chops.... being able to play something thrown in front of you.

Generally also involves sight reading tunes with out playing. Hearing music notation.

I can help dial this in but it usually works better when you do most of this stuff yourself.

Now you can actually start trying to play LOL

[Christian Miller]

seems to be out of print.

Roni Ben-Hur - Store

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Roni Ben-Hur - Store

Thanks but that fails with an error message. Looks like he doesn't have any copies either.

[grahambop]

That’s odd, from that link I could see the book (I’m using an ipad) and I was able to add it to the cart (although I didn’t go any further).

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Yea... OK.

1)So Yes Scales... and their modes or starting on each degree. All the standard patterns ... 1 2 3 4 , 2 3 4 5, 3 4 5 6... etc. And always 2 octaves. of each

( all the standard scales... Maj. and all modes, Melodic and Harmonic minors, Har. Maj. Symmetric scales... dim. etc

Pentatonics... both Maj and Dom. and Blues and bebop and combining blues with Majors and minors.

Then the arpeggios of all those scales... again two octaves, triads, 7th chords, 9ths and 13th. Again all two octaves.

I also did spider drills... single string and across up and down.

All these BS drills need to be done at the tempos of most jazz playing start where ever you can.... the learn how to go faster than you can play and still stay in rhythm need to get up to at least 200- 240.

2) Then chords.... again take the time to notate out all chords derived from all scales. and be able to play Chord Patterns that imply the starting chord. Ex. I VI II V's with reference to different Tonal Targets...

Ex. Maj.... I69 VI-7 II-7 V7.... which changes with minors bVI and eventually

Maj can become... I 6/9 VI7alt II-7 V7alt. depending on where your playing the actual chords with reference to the Harmonic Rhythm.

This also can be used with improve.... how harmony can organized melodic... improv as compared to
embellishment.

Typically this take more time... most guitarist have difficult time playing fast single notes let alone fast chord... and yes with rhythmic patterns

3) This should really be first... but for most is just too boring. Get a few drum books and start playing rhythmic patterns on single note, chord... whatever you can do.

4) Sight Reading... again start with rhythm... drum books and then bring in the notes. The point is to be able to recognize.... groups of notes, patterns. You don't actually read note by note....your always ahead. But you need to get past the momentary thing.

5) tunes, chord solos etc START... learning what musical Forms are and how the works.... the strong and weak rhythmic and tonal organization....

6) Performance Skills... after you develop some chops.... being able to play something thrown in front of you.

Generally also involves sight reading tunes with out playing.

I can help dial this in but it usually works better when you do most of this stuff yourself.

Now you can actually start trying to play LOL

Thanks for that Reg. And that is jazz guitar. Not that I am asking you for anything more at this point, but my question is different. It is a specific topic/focus.

Perhaps I should have put it more like this:

1. Pretend that you have been hired by a major univerity jazz studies program to head up improvisation studies, and are to devise curriculum for four, leveled, undergrad courses - for all instruments, not guitar. They start at the sophomore level, and require a barrier exam for each level prior to entering the class.

2. Further suppose that the program had a bifurcation choice between straight-ahead jazz and contemporary music, and you were hired for the former.

3. Pretend that Improv 101 for all instruments was required by the Dean of Jazz Studies to focus on bebop and that blues was the first order of business, to be followed up by rhythm changes in Improv 201.

What would the (1) barrier exam and (2) syllabus for Improv 101 include?

[mr. beaumont]

Improv 101 would be blues and rc

Bebop would start in 201 and continue for the rest of the students' lives.

[ragman1]

And thank god you only have to pretend :-)

[Christian Miller]

Thanks but that fails with an error message. Looks like he doesn't have any copies either.

Jamey Aebersold Jazz: Product Display

[Reg]

Yea... again, technique exam. The rest would be means for making $. There are lots of analogies for trying to do something without the skills to be able to do.

Micks approach, his books are still cool... he's just to weird about things. (which I liked, he was at berklee back while I was there.)

Post examples of playing something in Db... it's pretty easy to see and hear where your at. Like "Don't Be That Way" in a blusey bebop style...

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Thanks Jeff.

Ragman - we both do something else for a living, and I already know the answers, I just thought I'd see some other points of view. On this last question in particular it is aimed at qualified professional experts in Jazz Ed. - in other words Reg.

Reg was a skilled player before going to Berklee, earned his degree there, earned his masters, taught in college for a time, and is a full time professional jazz guitarist. He is what we call in the professional world an "expert" in his field, and is qualified to answer the question. That is why it's posed to him. He knows how these top collegiate programs work because he went through them. Despite all of that, this really isn't about formal school so much as a very highly focused course of study on bebop improv, school or no school. I couldn't care less if that floats your boat or not.

As I said days ago, I have what I want from this thread now. I could have simply asked, what do you think of Barry Greene's or Jerry Bergonzi's approaches?

Done.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Yea... again, technique exam. The rest would be means for making $. There are lots of analogies for trying to do something without the skills to be able to do.

Micks approach, his books are still cool... he's just to weird about things. (which I liked, he was at berklee back while I was there.)

Post examples of playing something in Db... it's pretty easy to see and hear where your at. Like "Don't Be That Way" in a blusey bebop style...

It's OK, I'm covered. Thanks.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

That’s odd, from that link I could see the book (I’m using an ipad) and I was able to add it to the cart (although I didn’t go any further).

I got it now, thanks!

[Victor Saumarez]

Is this/was this a valuable/worthwhile goal for any of you? If so, I wonder how you approached it, what results you achieved, whether it worked out like you had hoped, what worked and what didn't, etc.

In no particular order, here are some of the standard/established practices out there:

1. Play Bird heads and bop heads
2. Listen to the music (of course, but had to list it)
3. Learn & master jazz language patterns for:
   
   • II-V-I patterns, major and minor, short and long,
   • Turnarounds,
   • Single chord studies,
   • Write and master your own patterns,
   • Keep adding and mastering new material for your "war chest" over time
   
   
4. Master "exercises" that lay the a foudation for the jazz language patterns (beyond the obvious scales and arpeggios - approach notes, enclosures other chromatic schemes).
5. Develop the skill to extemporaneously "vary" all the material in #3 and #4, above. In other words - improvise on them
6. Learn solo etudes on jazz blues, rhythm changes, classic bop tunes
7. Write and master your own solo etudes on jazz blues, rhythm changes, classic bop tunes
8. Learn solos from "the masters" (no, not Tiger Woods)
9. Application - Improvise on jazz blues, rhythm changes, classic bop tunes

I think the above just about covers it. I'd probably add understanding the harmony and how typically bebop treats it, developing a good ear, developing a good sense of timing, learning how to put it all into practice by playing with others, and eventually developing your own sound.