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Hello,
Mike Moreno is one of my favourite new guitar players around. I was intrigued by stealing some ideas on his solo:
The problem is, despite the fact that I have been studying green dolphin for a little while, i cannot follow his lines on chords. In a few words I cannot understand what he is playing where in the progression.
I do not expect you to transcribe his solo for me, but could you please address me onto a line that you know for sure where it is played? Perhaps by indicating the time in the video where this line is played I think that I won’t get lost later in the solo. Maybe. Also do you have a little trick or secret to put into practice in order to figure out what and where Mike is playing a line?
Many thanks Enrico
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04-19-2023 05:52 AM
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In that case it's not a very good solo, is it? Just a lot of weird notes.
Originally Posted by Enricopg
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His time is pretty good here. You should try playing the chords along with him, just on the one of each bar.
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Sounds like he’s clearly outlining the chords to me? Try comping along as Jeff suggests and maybe it will be easier to hear how they relate.
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Sorry, I cannot understand what you are trying to say Originally Posted by ragman1
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I don't think ragman actually listened to the video, and he was basing his comment off an assumption that the solo ignored the chord changes and that's why it was hard to follow. Originally Posted by Enricopg
Sorry, I cannot understand what you are trying to say
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The problem is that it's just a guitar solo and there may be some time fluctuations but still the phrases are very clear and you can hear that everything is OK.
Certainly, if the recording was with a metronome, it would be easier to hear the intentions of the performer.
The easiest way is to count the number of choruses and mark the places where they start.
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Ah ok, I see… Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Ok, I want to give it another try… Originally Posted by kris
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It's a viable way of playing...Joe Pass did it too. Originally Posted by Marc Grossman
Ever hear a solo saxophone recording? No chords anywhere!
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It's the ultimate mastery for me to play single note and still outline the chord changes. Bach's solo violin works are the pinnacle of that. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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it is done quite a lot. You need to have the changes in your head in order to do that. Not an easy task. Take a look at this for example Originally Posted by Marc Grossman
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Uh? There's no assumption. The OP said it was hard for him to follow where he was in the progression. Dead right, it is. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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But what do you mean when you say that he plays a lot of weird notes? Do you mean he plays random? I am having troubles following him but his solo is great. I am sure every single note is supposed to be there. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Really? I think he's outlining the changes quite well, and lots of hints to the melody too... Originally Posted by ragman1
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What I say. It's not a very diatonic solo, there's a lot of dissonance, hence it's hard to say where the lines begin and end, as you've said. Also hard to say exactly what chords he's playing to. They may not be the expected chords since jazz players often alter them. So, unless one analysed it all very carefully, you'd need a very clever ear to get it right simply by listening. Originally Posted by Enricopg
I'm certainly not good enough to do that and, by your own admission, neither are you. Maybe there are people here who can do it, I wouldn't know.
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Then you're smarter than I am, bro :-) Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
But I did hear the odd reference to the melody. At least I got that far.
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Rather than playing the changes, he's playing off the changes. Very personal lines which sound amazing to my ears. I don't think it's a good idea to try to "steal" something, to make it yours if you don't fully "get" it in the first place. JMO.
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All made sense to me, I could keep track of where he was in the tune without too much trouble, and the lines all make sense. I could probably transcribe a lot of it if I could be bothered, apart from a couple of really fast bits and some of the more complicated chord fragments.
But then I know this tune inside out, and I’ve been practising like this myself for years, i.e. just playing lines over the form without any backing track etc. So I’m kind of used to his approach.
I don’t think I set out deliberately to do it that way, it just sort of developed as I got better at internalising tunes, and found I didn’t need a backing track any more.
Anyway I would suggest trying to count the beat to his solo as a starting point, you’ll probably lose it after a while, but with enough repetition it will probably get a bit easier. But learn the tune and the changes first, you need to have that down 100% first. Just doing that to the required level may take quite a long time. I’m not happy unless I can hear the changes all the way through in my head, without using the guitar at all.
One more thought - maybe it would help the counting if you slow down the youtube a bit, I haven’t tried that but it might be worth a try.
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It sounds like he’s exploring the A section chords a little more, but the B and C section chords are delineated pretty clearly with what I would describe as mostly bop language, chord tones and arpeggios used in a fairly traditional way. It’s actually pretty vanilla as far as these things go.
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Yes I just listened again to the first chorus of the solo at 75% speed and it sounded quite straightforward to me, I could work that out ok.
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This is soloing, and even though you can hear the chord changes in a solo, it's not easy to put down on paper.
The lack of metronomic control causes slight shifts.
That's the nature of playing solo...play something without a metronome and you'll see how easy it is to lose time and everything seems ok.
Joe Pass played perfectly as if he had a metronome inside him - but it's a completely different style of playing.
Moreno plays very well and controls the form of the tune - everything is correct!
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Ragman you couldn't hear the blues in my performance blues in c min.... Originally Posted by ragman1
I'd be more careful about commenting on Moreno.
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Enrico, welcome to the world of deep listening! I know you said you've been studying this tune for a while, but what you hear and how you approach it is obviously different from the way Mike hears it. You can only hear what you yourself know, so be patient. Originally Posted by Enricopg
Let's start with your ear. When you play this piece, are you off book?
When you think of this piece, how well do you know the landscape of the piece itself? Are you aware of the next change? The harmony 4 bars ahead of you? Can you anticipate what is coming up and be ON the change at the point BEFORE the bar line? How you answer this depends on how actively or passively you hear the piece. It comes from practicing the piece a lot and a lot of different ways.
You should know that when you put a growing knowledge of melody along with a growing awareness of harmony it gives you a stronger internal recognition of what Mike is doing. In other words, the closer you come to what and how he's playing, the easier it will be to know what and when he's doing it.
You might try this:
Break the piece down into very small bits. Make some kind of linear list in your mind of the progression of each of these bits and let them be their own individual cues as to where you are. Think of a trip you might make between somewhere you know and a place you need to commute to. You might think of it as just a trip by GPS at first, but the more you do it, the more you notice that here's that third overpass, here's where I should merge to this lane if I want to make that exit... you INTERNALIZE the nuances of that trip as a series of episodes and options of how you drive it.
Take those small bits and just loop that segment, each time playing it differently. How many ways can you play the I Maj chord and what can you hear that makes each iteration stand out. What's the nature of that space before you pass that overpass and turn to the I minor chord? What are the many options you have on that I minor? Knowing how long each segment is, and what your options are will bring you closer to what he's playing.
Now I don't know how good your ear is, but as it's going by, each change will indicate the possibility of a new phrase. Can you hear his solo as a series of phrases? Is your ear good enough to recognize individual phrases?
Look at the piece, hear the piece, know what you'd do in creating your own phrase, and then listen to his phrase and STOP the recording at the end of each phrase and savour the notes without getting lost in the next phrase. This stop and go process will help you recognize the relationship of phrases and harmony. Listen to what he does, and compare it with what you do. You'll learn a lot. He's not doing anything really outside the changes so although it's fast, it's still very close to the same harmony you're given.
Get off book.
Know your melodic possibilities.
Map the piece so each segment is an absolutely clear transition.
Know what YOU'D do to create a phrase within the harmony.
Listen for what HE does in each harmonic section.
Be patient and take the time to see the tune in segments and THEN see it as a whole.
Just a suggestion. Good luck
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Much better now. Today I recognised few phrases. Now it will look much easier. At least I know where I am instead of walking in the dark. For example I recognised the small run that starts at 1.21’ begins at the Ebmaj7 through C7 to Fmin7. And so on. But I have to count on something that is not my ears.
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