Singing while improvising

[kris]

Yeah, I was thinking of some of those questions/points too. On the chords and double stops thing, Herb Ellis had a master class for that. (just kidding)

Anyway, if one intends to play singer like lines, no problem! A skilled singer/ improviser could do something like Dexter. But Bird or Trane is a much taller task and one wonders what the objective would be anyway.

Instead of wondering, try to play and "sing" yourself.
Then maybe you'll understand what it's all about.
Then you'll see if it's hard or easy and what is it for.
Again, this is not typical singing like singers do.
Making fun of Herb Ellis's master class is probably a stupid joke.
Ellis plays in his own style and apparently that helped him a lot. He also talks about other instruments/e.g sax/.
ps.
There is also a master class of a bass player-video.

[Christian Miller]

But somehow Miles didn't hire Larry on his band.

maybe he declined (like Allan Holdsworth and Scott Henderson apparently…)

Actually it’s rather interesting to me that in the 70s Miles after McLaughlin (who iirc was never part of a Miles touring line up) didn’t really hire any of the big fusion guitar guns of the day. Maybe he couldn’t afford them… Mahavishnu etc was big business back then. Otoh Miles’s music wasn’t going in that direction so I’m not 100% those guys would have been that into it. Dave Liebman didn’t sound like he liked the band that much in interviews lol and JM describes the sessions as a bit bewildering - those 70s studio records like Jack Johnson and on the Corner were largely stitched together in the mixing room from hours of what probably seemed like aimless jamming. I note Jarrett had long left the touring band by the time of Dark Magus, Pangea and so on.

Anyway, I really like Pete Cosey on the live recordings …

re scott this was the 80s, so Miles was playing things like ‘human nature’ and a young scott wanted to play ‘real fusion’ with Zawinul etc… I can imagine Allan (aka the worlds least compromising man) having the same problem with that stuff. Luckily we get lots of great guitar from Stern, Sco and Ford…

[kris]

maybe he declined (like Allan Holdsworth and Scott Henderson apparently…)

Actually it’s rather interesting to me that in the 70s Miles after McLaughlin (who iirc was never part of a Miles touring line up) didn’t really hire any of the big fusion guitar guns of the day. Maybe he couldn’t afford them… Mahavishnu etc was big business back then. Otoh Miles’s music wasn’t going in that direction so I’m not 100% those guys would have been that into it. Dave Liebman didn’t sound like he liked the band that much in interviews lol and JM describes the sessions as a bit bewildering - those 70s studio records like Jack Johnson and on the Corner were largely stitched together in the mixing room from hours of what probably seemed like aimless jamming. I note Jarrett had long left the touring band by the time of Dark Magus, Pangea and so on.

Anyway, I really like Pete Cosey on the live recordings …

I have a biography book of Miles....maybe there is something about it....

[Christian Miller]

I have a biography book of Miles....maybe there is something about it....

Is that Ian Carr’s book? I never read it tbh. Would be interested to know if there is.

[kris]

Is that Ian Carr’s book? I never read it tbh. Would be interested to know if there is.

Miles:The Autobiography...Quincy Troupe & Miles

[kris]

maybe he declined (like Allan Holdsworth and Scott Henderson apparently…)

Actually it’s rather interesting to me that in the 70s Miles after McLaughlin (who iirc was never part of a Miles touring line up) didn’t really hire any of the big fusion guitar guns of the day. Maybe he couldn’t afford them… Mahavishnu etc was big business back then. Otoh Miles’s music wasn’t going in that direction so I’m not 100% those guys would have been that into it. Dave Liebman didn’t sound like he liked the band that much in interviews lol and JM describes the sessions as a bit bewildering - those 70s studio records like Jack Johnson and on the Corner were largely stitched together in the mixing room from hours of what probably seemed like aimless jamming. I note Jarrett had long left the touring band by the time of Dark Magus, Pangea and so on.

Anyway, I really like Pete Cosey on the live recordings …

re scott this was the 80s, so Miles was playing things like ‘human nature’ and a young scott wanted to play ‘real fusion’ with Zawinul etc… I can imagine Allan (aka the worlds least compromising man) having the same problem with that stuff. Luckily we get lots of great guitar from Stern, Sco and Ford…

McLaughlin was playing in the band Lifetime with Tony Williams at the time.
He also played shows with Miles in Washington...there are recordings on the Live-Evil album.
Then the band Mahavishnu was formed.
I didn't know Miles was so close to making an album with Jimi Hendrix...
Miles' stories about other guitarists are interesting....

[kris]

He kinda did in '78. They rehearsed and recorded together. As far as I know the recordings are not released. I don't know why they didn't tour together, but it was during the time of Mile's hiatus, recuperation and reentry back into music.

It was a couple of years later before Miles recorded and toured again, and by then he'd hooked up with Stern.

There is no such message in Miles' biography.
Before Mike Stern, there was Barry Finnerty.

[Christian Miller]

Miles:The Autobiography...Quincy Troupe & Miles

ah yeah, I’ve read that.

Im not sure I’d take anything from that book as being terribly factual, but i do remember Miles discussing that era as wanting to move away from a European approach to music.

[Christian Miller]

McLaughlin was playing in the band Lifetime with Tony Williams at the time.
He also played shows with Miles in Washington...there are recordings on the Live-Evil album.
Then the band Mahavishnu was formed.
I didn't know Miles was so close to making an album with Jimi Hendrix...
Miles' stories about other guitarists are interesting....

JM was a guest on one night of the Cellar Door dates (in DC), and then that night ended up being cut together as Live Evil*. The other nights are just the touring the band - so without JM - which Jarrett prefers and tbh i think agree with him (although Jarrett isn’t a fan of guitar in general iirc). The JM stuff has a great energy though.

(the Cellar door box set is well worth a listen if you haven’t checked it out and enjoy live evil)

The period I was talking about was a little later - early to mid 70s (live evil/cellar door was recorded 1970). I remember reading somewhere that miles was supporting bands led by his former sidemen on tour at that point, Mahavishnu and I think Herbie. (My dad says he saw the band as a headliner though.) JM continued to appear on Miles’ studio albums up to 1974 (Big Fun iirc), but that was material that had been recorded earlier probs for the on the corner sessions and was just being spliced together to make new releases.

I’m guessing JM was on the road with his band at that point. I’m not sure Miles was in the studio much in the 70s…

*including the removal of heads of compositions by, for instance, Joe Zawinul, with the tracks being retitled as ‘new compositions.’ Funny that.

[James W]

Is that Ian Carr’s book? I never read it tbh. Would be interested to know if there is.

I've read some of it. Though I was disappointed about Carr's dismissive attitude towards most of the second great quintet's records... Carr spends more time on the eighties than the sixties IIRC.

Re: Live-Evil/Cellar Door, yeah 'Funky Tonk' is 'Directions' with the head edited out. Personally, I prefer the Cellar Door disks which include McLaughlin, and I note that those were the only ones Miles used for Live-Evil.

It would have been awesome had McLaughlin chose to join Miles's band but hey-ho. In addition to the Cellar Door sessions there is this:

[AaronMColeman]

A few have mentioned singing as practice and singing helping with the rhythm. I find those both to be very true. I'm a pretty new Jazz Guitar player. A lot of times I'll record the chords into a looper and just sing a few lines that sound interesting, then I'll play them and play around with each little riff or melody. It really helps me get a framework to start with. Otherwise I'm going to play a great 4 bar Jazz solo and then fall into some sort of minor pentatonic non-jazz noodling.

It helps a lot with my ears too, having to translate what's in my head onto the fretboard. And what's funny is sometimes the melodic lines I sing are so simple but sound really good on guitar. I think singing or at least building a line in your head first really helps the music sound musical.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Instead of wondering, try to play and "sing" yourself.
Then maybe you'll understand what it's all about.
Then you'll see if it's hard or easy and what is it for.
Again, this is not typical singing like singers do.
Making fun of Herb Ellis's master class is probably a stupid joke.
Ellis plays in his own style and apparently that helped him a lot. He also talks about other instruments/e.g sax/.
ps.
There is also a master class of a bass player-video.

Well, I'm a classically trained singer but simply prefer the direct approach. "Performance ear training". Play what you hear, not sing what you hear. I'm not trying to sing.

But if singing helps somebody else, power to 'em.

[kris]

Well, I'm a classically trained singer but simply prefer the direct approach. "Performance ear training". Play what you hear, not sing what you hear. I'm not trying to sing.

But if singing helps somebody else, power to 'em.

At the music school, I had ear training classes.
Singing was the basis for these ear training exercises.
I mean classical music school.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Yes, I know that one too. That's ear training. That's not exactly what we're talking about here though, is it?

I think what we're talking about here is a means to help the performer ensure that unwritten and heretofore unsounded musical thought can be immediately expressed out loud in an accurate manner, using the human voice.

The notion being that from everyone's birth, the human voice is our natural sound maker (one of them anyway, ) and that it should be easier to make the correct sound using that than with an instrument, because an instrument is a mechanical device of sorts and requires a seperate, mechanically learned, skill. Or something like that.

It's just that I don't (fully) buy into it. Another point of view is - "start with the end in mind", and the end goal is - playing the just conceived musical impulse (from a nanosecond ago) on your instrument, and with your big mouth shut.

[AaronMColeman]

I think what we're talking about here is a means to help the performer ensure that unwritten and heretofore unsounded musical thought can be immediately expressed out loud in an accurate manner, using the human voice.

Maybe that's part of the problem, we aren't talking about the same thing. I like your definition. When I'm humming or singing a part it's often because signing is typically more melodic that guitar noodling. It helps me focus my riffs on melodies and not just what my fingers fly to when I'm playing. Other times I know I can hear in my head what I want to play and singing it helps me get the notes onto the guitar neck in real time.

[kris]

Yes, I know that one too. That's ear training. That's not exactly what we're talking about here though, is it?

I think what we're talking about here is a means to help the performer ensure that unwritten and heretofore unsounded musical thought can be immediately expressed out loud in an accurate manner, using the human voice.

The notion being that from everyone's birth, the human voice is our natural sound maker (one of them anyway, ) and that it should be easier to make the correct sound using that than with an instrument, because an instrument is a mechanical device of sorts and requires a seperate, mechanically learned, skill. Or something like that.

It's just that I don't (fully) buy into it. Another point of view is - "start with the end in mind", and the end goal is - playing the just conceived musical impulse (from a nanosecond ago) on your instrument, and with your big mouth shut.

I don't think we understand each other.
Maybe that will clear it up.
I listen to a lot of records with different music, but mainly jazz.
Different processes are going on in my brain and messages are accumulating.
For improvisation to make sense, I use my brain and through my voice I can do it the fastest.
The voice is my controller to play the notes I have in my brain.
Human speech and singing is closer to the brain than fingers.
I talk about the creative process called jazz improvisation all the time.
Creating a solo in jazz improvisation is a complicated task. You need have good timing, the right notes, feeling, swing, rhythm, teamwork, etc.
Note that classical musicians don't sing while playing - they just interpret the pieces and keep their mouths shut.
But it is often the case that they make terrible faces, which nevertheless express something.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

I don't think we understand each other.
Maybe that will clear it up.
I listen to a lot of records with different music, but mainly jazz.
Different processes are going on in my brain and messages are accumulating.
For improvisation to make sense, I use my brain and through my voice I can do it the fastest.
The voice is my controller to play the notes I have in my brain.
Human speech and singing is closer to the brain than fingers.
I talk about the creative process called jazz improvisation all the time.
Creating a solo in jazz improvisation is a complicated task. You need have good timing, the right notes, feeling, swing, rhythm, teamwork, etc.
Note that classical musicians don't sing while playing - they just interpret the pieces and keep their mouths shut.
But it is often the case that they make terrible faces, which nevertheless express something.

Agreed on that last point, and even if it were tolerated/desired/expected, the classical virtuoso couldn’t sing that lightning speed stuff anyway.

So, what’s the analogy? Well, fast - and very snaky - bebop, for one. So with all due respect I just don’t see the point. No offense.

[kris]

Agreed on that last point, and even if it were tolerated/desired/expected, the classical virtuoso couldn’t sing that lightning speed stuff anyway.

So, what’s the analogy? Well, fast - and very snaky - bebop, for one. So with all due respect I just don’t see the point. No offense.

Are you a guitarist?
You can play the same note on different strings on a guitar.
You can play the same phrase in different positions on the fretboard.-you use different fingers and different strings.
It's very difficult - 'singing' helps you feel the instrument. It's a whole performance tool for me - head, 'singing', fingers.
"Singing' not even clean, it controls the rhythm, phrases, pauses, notes - it controls the creative process that I have in my brain.
The fast pace of the tune needs to be practiced.First you have to play it slow and you can do it with your voice.
Then in quick runs you don't sing fast notes but you control phrase length, feel, rhythm etc.
If you want your fingers to guide you in playing, you can get into a routine.
It's hard to explain.If I couldn't sing my playing something would be missing...maybe soul...I don't know.
Everyone is different.
"Singing" makes me play fewer notes and think more musically.

[ccroft]

There is no such message in Miles' biography.
Before Mike Stern, there was Barry Finnerty.

Interview: George Pavlis - The Last Miles

These sessions are are also mentioned on Miles' page in Wikipedia, and several other places if you search for Larry Coryell and Miles Davis.

[Christian Miller]

Yes, I know that one too. That's ear training. That's not exactly what we're talking about here though, is it?

I think what we're talking about here is a means to help the performer ensure that unwritten and heretofore unsounded musical thought can be immediately expressed out loud in an accurate manner, using the human voice.

The notion being that from everyone's birth, the human voice is our natural sound maker (one of them anyway, ) and that it should be easier to make the correct sound using that than with an instrument, because an instrument is a mechanical device of sorts and requires a seperate, mechanically learned, skill. Or something like that.

It's just that I don't (fully) buy into it. Another point of view is - "start with the end in mind", and the end goal is - playing the just conceived musical impulse (from a nanosecond ago) on your instrument, and with your big mouth shut.

I think that’s a valid perspective. What I would say is that putting music on your instrument is perhaps less of a big deal than it may seem at first once time is spent on the instrument. Like you I don’t think singing has much to do with this.

In fact where I think singing is useful is to deal with what I and I think most guitarists struggle with, which is hearing the music in totality to start off with. players often forget what they are trying to play (esp if they are still hunting for the notes) and end up noodling or getting it wrong; that’s the biggest pitfall when learning to play by ear in fact. This is where the singing comes in for me it’s a way of ingraining the music in aural memory.

The real hardcore approach is to learn to sing the entire solo before going near the instrument. Lennie Tristano was famous for getting his students to do this, but it was common practice among jazz players before then.

if you can audiate everything you wish to play in complete detail without singing, singing would be unecessary.

in any case I’d divide the task into two halves
1) make sure you know what you are going to play properly
2) play it

its funny how much easier 2) gets once 1) gets it’s proper due. You also can’t practice 2) unless you have material that you know what you want to sound like, obviously.

[kris]

Interview: George Pavlis - The Last Miles

These sessions are are also mentioned on Miles' page in Wikipedia, and several other places if you search for Larry Coryell and Miles Davis.

Thanks

[pauln]

Singing as an aid to playing seems similar to patting one's foot to keep time. The foot doesn't have any sense of rhythm but what's provided and fed to it. Why skip the source and use the proxy foot to send feeling of movement back to the brain when the source is already in the brain, fully manifest and musically integrated? Using the foot pats means monitoring an additional external channel of perception of a copy of something you already know because you are the source of those pats sent to the foot.

That's why I asked the leading questions... about singing while playing

- if they don't think they have or can access their mind's aural ear, how do they sing?
- if they do have or can have access to their mind's aural ear, why not sing silently?

I have written a lot of things around here that even I admit are pretty esoteric, concerning learning and playing by ear, and suggested experiments when practicing to identify these internal "sources" that underlie the formal surface knowledge of rhythm, melody, harmony... another one of those things I had always thought all musicians did all the time but came to realize only a few, the rest* waiting for an app, book, method, or lesson.

* For the record, I am officially jazz certified "Not mad at theory"

[kris]

You don't want to knock with your foot - don't knock
You don't want to "sing' - don't "sing'...

I wrote what I do and what helps me.
There are many people who have the same opinion as me.
"Singing" on the guitar - maybe there's something to it.

[James W]

Note that classical musicians don't sing while playing - they just interpret the pieces and keep their mouths shut.
But it is often the case that they make terrible faces, which nevertheless express something.

Glenn Gould?

[Christian Miller]

Ha the patting the foot debate is a whole different rabbit hole.