Singing while improvising

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Oscar Peterson does it too. You may not call it singing. But he plays fast and "hums something under his breath".
What I mean is that the breath gives you fluid control over the phrases.
Is it so hard to understand...?

only if one makes it so.

[kris]

only if one makes it so.

I do it and it's great.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

I know a lot of jazz musicians who do that.
Most of them do it in a very discreet way - 'singing'.
I absolutely don't mind.I wouldn't compare real singing to the singing of an improvisational jazz musician.
That would be absurd.
t's better to ask yourself why these jazz musicians do this?

More like why some do it, not all. Far from it, in fact.

[kris]

More like why some do it, not all. Far from it, in fact.

Perhaps they "sing internally" and you don't see it.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

I do it and it's great.

No offense, but I just don’t hear Django, Charlie, Wes or McLaughlin doing it, so that cuts it for me.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Perhaps they "sing internally" and you don't see it.

There you go.

[kris]

No offense, but I just don’t hear Django, Charlie, Wes or McLaughlin doing it, so that cuts it for me.

That's why I wrote in the first post that not everyone does it. Or maybe you can't see from them that they do it.
For me, this kind of 'singing" makes me more connected to the instrument during improvisation.
My 'singing" controls my playing-improvisation...no fingers and learned licks...

[kris]

No offense, but I just don’t hear Django, Charlie, Wes or McLaughlin doing it, so that cuts it for me.

It was very important thing for Herb Ellis.
Herb Ellis said who did it:
Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, G. Benson, O. Peterson, R. Brown etc.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

That's why I wrote in the first post that not everyone does it. Or maybe you can't see from them that they do it.
For me, this kind of 'singing" makes me more connected to the instrument during improvisation.
My 'singing" controls my playing-improvisation...no fingers and learned licks...

Sure. I think that people engage their senses in a varying number of ways to expressively improvise music. Whatever works. That said, an overly animated display of those senses, especially audible, is distracting to witnesses/consumers/fans.

If one indulges himself by moaning and groaning as they play, they can only blame themselves when their audience heads for the exits.

[kris]

Sure. I think that people engage their senses in a varying number of ways to expressively improvise music. Whatever works. That said, an overly animated display of those senses, especially audible, is distracting to witnesses/consumers/fans.

If one indulges himself by moaning and groaning as they play, they can only blame themselves when their audience heads for the exits.

I didn't know people were leaving the Jarrett's concert.
From what I've heard people don't understand what he's playing and they often talk during concerts of the pianist's genius.
This greatly hinders Jarrett's concentration.

[Christian Miller]

Or maybe the temptation to wind Jarrett up is almost irresistible….

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Or maybe the temptation to wind Jarrett up is almost irresistible….

Lol, Coryell opined that Jarrett was “insufferable”.

On his studio recordings with his trio (which are great, BTW) one can still hear him moaning, although down in the mix. Eeeeeeeeeeee, Eeeeeeeeeee.

[wolflen]

I started with simple blues riffs..(Albert King) scat style..singing them until I knew them well..then used with the guitar

[kris]

Lol, Coryell opined that Jarrett was “insufferable”.

On his studio recordings with his trio (which are great, BTW) one can still hear him moaning, although down in the mix. Eeeeeeeeeeee, Eeeeeeeeeee.

I don't listen to groans, I just listen to music.
Larry Coryell and Jarrett-are you going to compare them?

[Christian Miller]

Jarrett is widely regarded as insufferable. He also, annoyingly, rather good at music.

[kris]

Jarrett is widely regarded as insufferable. He also, annoyingly, rather good at music.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

I don't listen to groans, I just listen to music.
Larry Coryell and Jarrett-are you going to compare them?

Well, Larry is arguably the kick starter of “jazz rock fusion”, which one could argue was partially the “direction in music” that drove Miles to hire Jarrett, which one could argue is largely the reason Jarrett is as well known as he is.

So… yeah, I guess so.

[ccroft]

I saw Keith with Miles in '71. He might've been screaming, but I couldn't hear it. He looked like he was having an ecstatic, out of body experience. I know I was.

It's a personality thing. Some do and some don't. For those that do it's part of getting it done, and part of the flavour of the stew. Some folks would rather have something else.

[kris]

Well, Larry is arguably the kick starter of “jazz rock fusion”, which one could argue was partially the “direction in music” that drove Miles to hire Jarrett, which one could argue is largely the reason Jarrett is as well known as he is.

So… yeah, I guess so.

But somehow Miles didn't hire Larry on his band.

[ccroft]

But somehow Miles didn't hire Larry on his band.

He kinda did in '78. They rehearsed and recorded together. As far as I know the recordings are not released. I don't know why they didn't tour together, but it was during the time of Mile's hiatus, recuperation and reentry back into music.

It was a couple of years later before Miles recorded and toured again, and by then he'd hooked up with Stern.

[Lionelsax]

What does singing give you when you play a solo in a jazz tune?
There are musicians who do it and there are musicians who don't.
It is also known that it would be difficult for saxophonists or trumpet players to sing while playing.

I sometimes do it. Some years ago I recorded it.
The voice is swinging, the instrument doesn't (keyboard).
It's a mess, I don't know who plays first, the keyboard or the voice...
That sounds awful. I'm not ashamed.

This is another experimentation, it's singing a song while playing a bass line.
And it sounds like shit !

That was years go, I think it could be better now.
I just think that it sounds better while singing but limited.
Simple phrases sound good, when it's more complicated it's a mess.

[pauln]

Jarrett could eliminate his vocal noises by placing a close mic (like a headset mic), inverting polarity of the vocal signal and adding it to the piano mic signal, thereby actually subtracting (so cancelling) it out the piano channel to the front of house. The same principles could be applied to his vocal monitor to cancel his vocal noises acoustically at the source. The sound engineers would have to set the relative gain for the head mic, piano mic, and vocal monitor, but that's just part of sound check.

Leading questions...
- when people sing while playing are they thinking they are singing or playing by ear?
- if they think it helps their playing, why not sing silently within their mind's aural ear?
- if they don't think they have or can access their mind's aural ear, how do they sing?
- if they do have or can have access to their mind's aural ear, why not sing silently?
- what happens when you want to play faster than you can sing well enough out loud?
- what happens when you play double stops or chords; do you choose a voice to sing?

I only sing with my hands, but of those who made descriptions of how singing out loud helps, I wonder if a primary effect of singing what you play when soloing or improvising might be to lend some sense of heightened confidence to what is played - that any residual indecision is calmed by the mutual commitment between the hands and voice to produce the same thing. Maybe it also helps by beneficially adjusting what and how things are played (because the voice can't do everything the hands can execute, so maybe slower, more melodic, more "voice like" in choice of intervals in lines, closer reflection of the melody, induced breath phrasing, maybe even a connection to "telling a story" because of engagement of the voice channel). Those all look like highly desirable results that actual singing might promote.

[Bop Head]

There is a (well worth seeing anyway as a whole) video from the Filius Jazz Archive where Mike Longo talks to Monk Rowe about Dizzy Gillespie, Kundalini energy and grunting pianists (at ca 56:00 in case you are unpatient):

[kris]

Kurt "sings" discreetly.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Jarrett could eliminate his vocal noises by placing a close mic (like a headset mic), inverting polarity of the vocal signal and adding it to the piano mic signal, thereby actually subtracting (so cancelling) it out the piano channel to the front of house. The same principles could be applied to his vocal monitor to cancel his vocal noises acoustically at the source. The sound engineers would have to set the relative gain for the head mic, piano mic, and vocal monitor, but that's just part of sound check.

Leading questions...
- when people sing while playing are they thinking they are singing or playing by ear?
- if they think it helps their playing, why not sing silently within their mind's aural ear?
- if they don't think they have or can access their mind's aural ear, how do they sing?
- if they do have and have access to their mind's aural ear, why not sing silently?
- what happens when you want to play faster than you can sing well enough out loud?
- what happens when you play double stops or chords; do you choose a voice to sing?

I only sing with my hands, but of those who made descriptions of how singing out loud helps, I wonder if a primary effect of singing what you play when soloing or improvising might be to lend some sense of heightened confidence to what is played - that any residual indecision is calmed by the mutual commitment between the hands and voice to produce the same thing. Maybe it also helps by beneficially adjusting what and how things are played (because the voice can't do everything the hands can execute, so maybe slower, more melodic, more "voice like" in choice of intervals in lines, closer reflection of the melody, induced breath phrasing, maybe even a connection to "telling a story" because of engagement of the voice channel). Those all look like highly desirable results that actual singing might promote.

Yeah, I was thinking of some of those questions/points too. On the chords and double stops thing, Herb Ellis had a master class for that. (just kidding)

Anyway, if one intends to play singer like lines, no problem! A skilled singer/ improviser could do something like Dexter. But Bird or Trane is a much taller task and one wonders what the objective would be anyway.