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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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03-01-2023 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by John A.
It's a ton of work. Or rather, it takes effort and time. There's no way around the time part. Or the effort part.
The people who are able to enjoy the time and effort that it takes--well, they're the ones who succeed.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by John A.
I had days when I played - I practiced the guitar 8 hours a day and it's hard for me to call it fun.
On the other hand, playing at a concert gives me great pleasure.I just enjoy making music.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
is it about theories of how to play jazz music?...or...
is it about playing music in general?
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My view of it is no different than the definitions in the search bar:
define music theory in google:
Music theory as a practical discipline encompasses the methods and concepts that composers and other musicians use in creating and performing music. Wiki.
Music theory examines musical qualities such as timbre, tone, pitch, and texture, as well as compositional elements such as rhythm, dynamics, tempo, and more. Britanica.
Music theory denotes the practice that musicians apply to communicate and understand the musical language. study.com
Music theory is a practice musicians use to understand and communicate the language of music. iconcollective.edu
Being silly about 'not knowing' how to define the topic, or purposely misdefining it is just another tactic in the mad-at-theory campaign.
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In the context of the forum there is a another definition of theory that's commonly used. It's a more experiential, subjective definition:
Theory for person A: A miscellaneous category of concepts, ideas, knowledge and notation "the person A" doesn't find useful as a musician. Because if they were useful, "the person A" would've considered them applied, practical knowledge and not theory.
On the other hand, some members consider theory as anything within the scope of a Music Theory 101 book and beyond.
No wonder the debate never goes anywhere.
I like both definitions, BTW.
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Why should the narrative get nowhere when the 1st definition is false? I don't conform to putting up with constant alt facts. If you apply theory, it doesn't make it not theory, it makes it applied theory lol.
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I know musicians who play great and communicate well with other musicians and don't know the 'theory'...;-)
There are also those who do not know the notes.
I also know those who show off their theoretical knowledge and are poor musicians .... interesting ...
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I'm taking lessons with the most prominent Hammond player in the entire world. He uses theory for everything and his playing is incredibly musical. Interesting.
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Lordy. The ground-zero definition of music theory is anything that explains music. Explaining what a note is is theory. And, of course, it becomes more and more complex the more one gets into it.
But the technical explanation of something is not the thing itself. Just holding down and strumming a C chord on a guitar is one thing but the academic explanation of chords, intervals, scales, and so on, is another.
As one school kid quipped when asked how a fridge works: 'Plug it in, turn it on, and if it goes wrong get the man'.
So is theory necessary? No, not just to play something on an instrument. But if one wants to really understand melody, harmony, composition, and the various other elements of music, especially jazz, then it obviously helps if one's studied it a bit. It also means you can communicate and discuss the music with others.
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Originally Posted by kris
Seriously, like Jeff I don’t regard fretboard mapping and knowing what notes are in a scale as theory… many do, so fine.
otoh there are some amazing guitarists who don’t know that stuff who can piss rings around most members here. Denying they exist doesn’t mean they can’t take your gigs ;-) they are out there, and they have too many gigs to post bullshit on JGO.
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Constant alt facts is annoying, Christian. Also your premises are false. I don't start trouble if there's no reason. Ragman's definition is correct and is what I'll be using from now on.
Are you going to post these players and prove they don't use theory?
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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I know. It's an advantage to directly grasp music. It's not an advantage to not use theory.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Now you're not only arguing about theory but arguing about its very definition. Absurd. Music theory is the verbal description and explanation of music and its elements. To think otherwise is coo-coo land.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
I'm not sure why we want to be difficult about this.
You obviously need to know your instrument to play jazz. Even somebody like say, Django, who folks like to Romanticize about not knowing anything of music theory, could certainly find every F# on the fretboard in seconds--even if he didn't know it was called F#.
And obviously to play jazz guitar you have to be able to understand chords, and where to find them.
Is that theory? If it makes the conversation get back on track, then yes, you absolutely need that theory. You also need some technical facility on the instrument. There's no getting away from that, either.
For me personally, the knowledge set needed to play a whole lot of jazz (the theory, if you will) is actually pretty small. Fretboard knowledge, major scales, chord building (and knowing how to add tension/extensions to chords) arpeggios...that will get you a long way. Nothing really heavy, just a matter of getting really good at 5 things rather than dabbling in 50. Do you stop there? No. Could you spend a lifetime just getting really good at that stuff and still play great music? Absolutely.
Does theory come before the music? Never, in my opinion. You can give a person all of the theoretical knowledge available, but unless they listen to a ton of jazz, internalize it, copy it, play it back, learn tunes, tunes, tunes, ear train, play melodies...they'll never play jazz. Conversely, you can leave out the theory, take those other things, and you can learn to play jazz. How do I know this? Because the people who invented jazz did it that way. But those people DID know the knowledge/theory set I mentioned--whether academically or intuitively. That's why I say that stuff is most important (and that I argue that there's nothing theoretical about them, they just are...they're facts...but that bogs the conversation down)
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Some definitions of music theory are not only the basic one, as above, but also include possibilities that can be conceived from the essential ingredients.
Personally, I wouldn't go that far. A 'possibility' based on accepted musical theory is certainly theoretical but does not alter the fundamental order upon which it's based. Any new composition began as a possibility but is still part of the established order.
We have two meanings of the word theoretical. One is a conceptual possibility, the other is the name we give to established musical principles. A hypothesis derived from established principles is not a contradiction of those principles.
Can anyone name any idea which contradicted (not embellished or expanded) basic theory and which then became an accepted part of that basic theory?
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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And here I was excited to think a useful posts were coming this thread. Instead you guys are having another circle jerk over the same dead horse.
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I don't think it's our duty to have to avoid debating theory because it causes contention, it's the members' duty who push alt facts to give it a rest and conform to the truth. It's intolerable. Theory is an essential part of music. Further, we're on a forum and it's essential to many discussions on music!
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That's a nice visual Allan
I thought my post was helpful. I mean, I've been posting here for like 15 years, posted hundreds of videos, it's very obvious what I can and cannot do, and I'm not hiding anything about my process either. I'm still in the process of mastering those few things I said were crucial. It might take me the rest of my days. But it hasn't stopped me from playing music.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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Originally Posted by kris
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
I know these jazz giants had so many gigs they didn't have time to talk about theory....that's life.
Rahsaan Roland Kirk
Yesterday, 11:05 PM in The Players