Melodic minor modes & chords

[Christian Miller]

Thanks. I think we are talking about different things. C7 (as in mixolydian) to Dmin would be just D Natural minor. If we add the leading note (C#) with C7b9 we get D harmonic minor (or C mixolydian becomes A phrygian dominant). But like Christian said without the b5 it ain't MM which is what the OP is interested in.

One interesting thing is that, C# also makes C7 the bebop scale. Or from the point of view of the important minor (Gmin) it's the blue note (b5 of G minor blues scale). That blue note turns the vanilla C7 into A7b9b13. Anyway that's too many nerdy connections.

Oo you said ‘bebop scale’. I’m going to report you to the Barry Harris police.

They used to hang out in my YouTube comment section but I think they’ve all gone somewhere else now.

[Christian Miller]

I took Jordan’s Seven Days to Melodic Minor Course recently and also like his approach. As you say he starts off with a triad and then adds notes to it. So rather than thinking of scales or modes what you end up with is a pitch collection to “paint” with. It is another way to look at MM.

i.e. play a C major triad over an E7.

yeah, it’s nice. I think a lot of the music is actually in the smaller pitch collections. It’s amazing how much can be done with four notes.

[Reg]

yea... here is something to start with...

[Reg]

I use MM just like any other scale or collection of notes. As a Reference... or the starting point to create relationships with.

Ex. Bbmm.. I use functional relationships ... both melodically as well as harmonically

Bb-ma9
x x 8 x x x
x x x 6 x x
x x x x 6 x
x x x x x 5
x x x x x 8

Up a diatonic 3rd

Dbma9#5
x x 11 x x x
x x x 10 x x
x x x x 10 x
x x x x x 8
x x x x x 11

Down a diatonic 3rd
G-9b5
x x 5 x x x
x x x 3 x x
x x x x 2 x
x x x x x 1
x x x x x 5


And I use way too much... MM for creating relationships with a Reference

Ex. would be... I use MM as a relationship with Dorian. And with that 60's and 70's II-V7 thing of using MM modally to help create Relationships with Blue Notes

Also with Pentatonics

[Christian Miller]

I use MM just like any other scale or collection of notes. As a Reference... or the starting point to create relationships with.

Ex. Bbmm.. I use functional relationships ... both melodically as well as harmonically

Bb-ma9
x x 8 x x x
x x x 6 x x
x x x x 6 x
x x x x x 5
x x x x x 8

Up a diatonic 3rd

Dbma9#5
x x 11 x x x
x x x 10 x x
x x x x 10 x
x x x x x 8
x x x x x 11

Down a diatonic 3rd
G-9b5
x x 5 x x x
x x x 3 x x
x x x x 2 x
x x x x x 1
x x x x x 5


And I use way too much... MM for creating relationships with a Reference

Ex. would be... I use MM as a relationship with Dorian. And with that 60's and 70's II-V7 thing of using MM modally to help create Relationships with Blue Notes

Also with Pentatonics

this made me think of Wes on Nica’s dream for some reason

[kris]

maybe it's easier to think in chords and appropriate melodic scales?
f.ex:
G7#11- d mel min
Gmaj7#5- e mel min
Gm7b5 - Bb mel min
G7alt - Ab mel min

[Reg]

maybe it's easier to think in chords and appropriate melodic scales?
f.ex:
G7#11- d mel min
Gmaj7#5- e mel min
Gm7b5 - Bb mel min
G7alt - Ab mel min

That works but is extra mental step, You've listed the most common uses, I mean G7#11 is what it is ... G lyd. Dom., the next step could be being aware of Dmm and other relationships.

Personally I would think and hear D Dorian 1st, before Dmm. Again personally I'm either thinking or hearing of that chord or scale as a Reference or ...as a Relationship to something else.
Thinking and hearing of appropriate MM scale or Dmm with reference to G7#11, again personally is a Relationship to that G7#11.

The differences are, or become... are with the Developments... how I expand or even embellish etc...

And I don't really know what works best, but at some point we need to know the differences etc... or at least it will really help when playing etc...

[rpjazzguitar]

maybe it's easier to think in chords and appropriate melodic scales?
f.ex:
G7#11- d mel min
Gmaj7#5- e mel min
Gm7b5 - Bb mel min
G7alt - Ab mel min

It might be easier to think of the chords and not the scales. Well, not exactly.

Suppose you have a scale you call a G7 scale. That would be all white keys. Aka G mixo or Cmajor.
Then, you could sharp the C and call the result a G7#11 scale. The scale and chord name are the same -- which seems like an advantage to me.

For Gmaj7#5 you have a Gmaj7 scale (F# instead of F) and you sharp the D. Is it helpful to think of it as third mode Emel min rather than just "Gmaj#5 scale"?

Gm7 scale? Start with G7 and flat the B. To get Gm7b5, flat the D. Call that a Gm7b5 scale. Is that worse than thinking "6th mode Bbmelmin"?

G7alt involves 4 alterations, so this approach may get unwieldy, but all you're doing is altering the 5th and 9th, each in both directions. Or you might find it easier, for this one, to think in terms of the mel min a half step up.

Too simple? I know at least one top pro who teaches it this way.

It's helpful to know the notes of the major scale in all keys, absolutely automatically. And, of course, where they are on the instrument. That's 12 keys plus some enharmonic equivalents. That's some work, but it pays off in multiple ways. Once you know the major scales most of what you're doing is adjusting a note here and there.

[Christian Miller]

The Advancing Guitarist p62-64

If you don’t have this book….

What? Why don’t you have this book? Get this book!

EDIT:
pertaining to the question of whether to go with applying the melodic minor scale or going from the root of the chord in question. There are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches

[Reg]

Because you should have done all this BS by yourself. And the book is dated and doesn't cover a lot of same type of material but wasn't figured out as well back then. I'm not implying you christian... those who don't have this BS together yet.

The other thing is he misses a lot of common practice applications of relationships with Blue Notes and more modern or expanded uses of Chord Patterns etc... But wait there's more... LOL

[ragman1]

For god's sake, this use of the MM isn't difficult., There are places where it works and places where it doesn't. Learn them and apply it intelligently and there's the problem solved.

Unless we just want one of those clever-dick theoretical discussions that end up with disagreements and go nowhere.

[pauln]

For god's sake, this use of the MM isn't difficult., There are places where it works and places where it doesn't. Learn them and apply it intelligently and there's the problem solved.

Unless we just want one of those clever-dick theoretical discussions that end up with disagreements and go nowhere.

I don't think that's quite what is happening. There are two sides to this kind of thing;
one's the "input" side (construction, reference, relationships) which those who have
been through some rigorous formal process as a student or teacher have conceived
symbolically as it is presented so, the other's an "output" side (application, execution,
integration) which those who have played/performed a long time will have conceived
aurally... both having happened in general. The OP inquired of how do you practice
melodic minor modes... which should be answered from some basis with substance
more than, "Telepathy* to my hands to play it, I listen to confirm it sounds good".

* actually the most honest description of how I do it...

[kris]

For god's sake, this use of the MM isn't difficult., There are places where it works and places where it doesn't. Learn them and apply it intelligently and there's the problem solved.

Unless we just want one of those clever-dick theoretical discussions that end up with disagreements and go nowhere.

You bragged that you don't practice guitar at all...so what are you doing here?

[GuyBoden]

I remember relating MMM to the obvious Major scale modes:

Ionian flat 3rd
C D Eb F G A B C

Dorian flat 2nd
D Eb F G A B C D

Phrygian flat 1st
Eb F G A B C D Eb

Lydian flat 7th
F G A B C D Eb F

Mixolydian flat 6th
G A B C D Eb F G

Aeolian flat 5th
A B C D Eb F G A

Locrian flat 4th
B C D Eb F G A B

But, it didn't help in hearing how they fit over changes.

[ragman1]

You bragged that you don't practice guitar at all...so what are you doing here?

You only quote me partially. What I've said many times is that I don't practice exercises, etudes, scales, arpeggios, and so on. Of course, I had to work things out from books at the beginning but that was years ago.

What I do is play tunes a great deal. In other words I play and improvise always with a context, not out of context. For the simple reason that if one plays a lot of exercises, when you improvise it can sound like an exercise. This is an oft-repeated instruction and many well-known players have said exactly the same.

As regards using MM scales or scale-fragments, it's in playing in context that one finds out where they work and where they don't. And after a while it becomes second-nature; one can feel it arriving, so to speak.

But there's nothing mysterious or hidden about where they work. Most posters have said it on this thread already. Besides, the MM is rarely the only option one has in certain situations, it's just one of several.

Of course, one can abstract any of this sort of thing and get lost in technical terminology. It amuses some people but it has little to do with real-life application.

So I don't practice exercises, never have. I play actual music and improvise. If you want to call that practice, so be it. And, of course, bragging has nothing to do with it, it's just the fact. And, for what it's worth, it's hard work, much harder than trawling laboriously through some exercises which simply become repetitive and rather tedious.

The best post so far on this is from Alter. It's simple, straightforward, practical, and it works.

Melodic minor modes & chords

[ragman1]

But, it didn't help in hearing how they fit over changes.

I think that's more or less what I'm saying.

See, we don't do this with the major scale. We know all about Dorian, Mixolydian, Phrygian, etc, but are repeatedly told, especially in a ii-V-I context, not to really think like that.

The MM's just another scale but for some reason it confounds us.

[kris]

You only quote me partially. What I've said many times is that I don't practice exercises, etudes, scales, arpeggios, and so on. Of course, I had to work things out from books at the beginning but that was years ago.

What I do is play tunes a great deal. In other words I play and improvise always with a context, not out of context. For the simple reason that if one plays a lot of exercises, when you improvise it can sound like an exercise. This is an oft-repeated instruction and many well-known players have said exactly the same.

As regards using MM scales or scale-fragments, it's in playing in context that one finds out where they work and where they don't. And after a while it becomes second-nature; one can feel it arriving, so to speak.

But there's nothing mysterious or hidden about where they work. Most posters have said it on this thread already. Besides, the MM is rarely the only option one has in certain situations, it's just one of several.

Of course, one can abstract any of this sort of thing and get lost in technical terminology. It amuses some people but it has little to do with real-life application.

So I don't practice exercises, never have. I play actual music and improvise. If you want to call that practice, so be it. And, of course, bragging has nothing to do with it, it's just the fact. And, for what it's worth, it's hard work, much harder than trawling laboriously through some exercises which simply become repetitive and rather tedious.

The best post so far on this is from Alter. It's simple, straightforward, practical, and it works.

Melodic minor modes & chords

Guy, don't annoy me.
You don't really know how to play jazz and what it really means.
Create your own thread on how to play jazz without practicing.
And please don't post nonsense here.!!!

[kris]

I think that's more or less what I'm saying.

See, we don't do this with the major scale. We know all about Dorian, Mixolydian, Phrygian, etc, but are repeatedly told, especially in a ii-V-I context, not to really think like that.

The MM's just another scale but for some reason it confounds us.

Man, melodic minor is one of the most important scales used in jazz music for decades!!!

[kris]

You have three modes that are very useful and common: Melodic minor, altered, and Lydian b7 (or Mixolydian #11). Then you have the other 4, not so common but still useful:

The way I see them:

1. Melodic minor scale, easily played as a color over min7 and min6 chords.

2.Dorian b2 (aka Phrygian #6). The least useful mode, but can be used both over a min7 or a dom7 chord as color, as it hints at both the blues and the diminished scale.

3.Lydian #11, played over maj7#5 chords, or as color over maj7 chords.

4.Lydian #7 (or mixolydian #11). Played over all dom7 chords that don't function as secondary dominants.

5.Mixolydian b6, played as color over dom7 chords.

6.Locrian natural 9, played as color over min7b5 chords.

7.Altered scale, a scale that alters both the 5th and 9th degrees, a common out playing vehicle over dominants.

The chords of the melodic minor scale are very useful also, as they introduce new chord forms and combinations (and the same with arpeggios).

Overall it's a scale I really like and use all its modes and chords a lot.

nr4 is a mistake in the name...should be lydian b7
but that doesn't bother -ragman

[Reg]

yea I agree...
I think I posted a long time ago about using MM with Dom. Pents for creating a different Blues feel or sound

EX. Bbmin, using Bb Db Eb F G (Eb Dom pent) It open doors for different uses of Blue Notes. I know notes aren't even in the scale etc... but part of improve development is the relationships created from Different References.
( that could be Eb Dom. Pents)

Some of the best shit comes from getting past the 1st or vanilla examples....

The other thing when you play lots of notes or take a few choruses when soloing... you have many more options for going through different harmonic and melodic doors. I have that problem sometimes...LOL

Anyway... the 1st or obvious choices....as stated by Rag ... and many other players ...is usually not the only option,
or most interesting etc...

[ragman1]

There is a chord to which the MM is very well suited and I don't think it's been mentioned yet. Christian touched on it here but didn't spell it out.

Melodic minor modes & chords

That's the 13b9 as in

G13b9 - 3x3454 (the G bass is optional)

A lot of modern players use it. It's one of Bernstein's favorites and he likes to use it in a minor V-i. It sounds a bit exotic and out because it contrasts the natural 3rd (E) against the b3rd (Eb) of the minor i.

The 13b9 is not a chord that's produced by harmonising the MM scale which is probably why it's overlooked. But the right MM scale contains all the necessary notes. So for

Dm7b5 - G713b9 - Cm7 (or Cm/M7)

play the MM off the b7 of the dominant chord. In other words, F MM over G13b9.

But the F MM is also good for the Dm7b5 so the F MM can be used for both those chords. It's very nice.

[ragman1]

Incidentally, the name 13b9 is often used for this shape, especially in bossa tunes.

4x345x

But most people would agree that it's wrongly named. It's actually a diminished sound. That is, an Abo with the note E on top.

It satisfies the requirements of a G13b9 because it contains the correct notes but its function is different. For example, in Corcovado it's the passing chord between the Am6 and the Gm7. Playing it using the shape above is a common move and sounds very good.

Am6 - Abo (called G13b9) - Gm7/Gb7b5 - FM7/F6

But you'll find using F MM over it isn't good, it sounds dreadful. Technically it needs a diminished line. But personally I've found that treating it as a straight G7 is best and G mixo (C major) sounds much better.

In passing, there is a melodic minor scale in this clip. Over the Gb7b5 I used Db MM which is Gb Lyd Dom. This is interesting because normally a Lyd Dom would be applied to a non-resolving dominant (i.e. not resolving to its I chord). Here, however, it works because the ear is expecting and hearing a C7, not a Gb7, and the Db MM sounds like C7alt, which is correct before the FM7. I know, it's complex :-)

[RunningBeagle]

I've seen references to thinking in modes of MM and scales relative to specific chords. What about in reference to the home key?

This is how I approach it, and when you do so, all of this complexity collapses on itself and allows you to play music. For example, C major.

Subdominant minor

• Chords: D-7b5, Bb7#11, Fminmaj7
• Function: intermediate to V chord OR going to I as the so-called "backdoor" (i.e. from subdominant to tonic)
• Scale: C, D, E, F, G, Ab, Bb, C <--- see... ONE scale, just a major scale with the 6th and 7th degrees flatted. Depending on function you can choose what to emphasize here and what notes to move to when you get to the next chord

Altered Dominant

• Chords: G7alt, Db7#11
• Function: high tension back to tonic
• Scale: Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, B <--- again... ONE scale. It's C major but you replace the C and D with their half step neighbors, and 6 and 7 are again flatted. Here I do think it is helpful practically to think in Ab melodic minor

Dominant "Pause" // Static Dominant

• Chord: D7#11
• Function: that old timey "pause" thing they do on A train, Indiana,
  , end of The Chicken
• Scale: C, D, E, F#, G#, A, B <--- C major avoiding F and G. When you have a bunch of these in sequence, then yeah you should be fluent thinking in Lydian Dominant

Altered V of VI-

• Chord: E7alt
• Function: V of relative minor, substitution for subdominant minor of tonic like in Pannonica
• Scale: same as subdominant minor - here this is a helpful observation if you're looking to play thematic material with some repeated motives and only minor tweaks to the notes. But thinking about this as a C major scale w/ 6 and 7th degrees flatted isn't that helpful, primarily because Ab implies going to G, when here you're really after a G# sound going the other direction.

One way to skin the cat, extremely practical, flexible, and to the point of an earlier post... no avoid notes in any of these, so you have a full range of diatonic chords (that move in the exact same sequence in all of these contexts) to comp with.

Works for me and maybe not for others. I tend to think of Dm7-G7-Cmaj as just C with a little tension, more tension, and not-so-much tension, and this is just the melodic minor analogue of that.

[GuyBoden]

For chords, I think if you have the Root, 3rd and 7th. Then any other scale note can work in the bass. Obviously, depending on context.

For CMM, I like this:

D-C-Eb-B


Also, I've used this:

[Christian Miller]

Most of the time it’s one note away from the major mode choice

D7 - D mixo/lyd dom - G#
Bm7b5 - B locrian/locrian #2 - C#
G7sus4 - G Dorian/Dorian b2 - Ab

etc

So make a beeline for that note until you can sing the sound cold, and add it into your voicings.

The altered is the exception because it’s about creating chromatic voice leading, not static harmonic colour (at least in more conventional approaches.)