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Thats my point exactly!
Originally Posted by sgcim
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02-23-2023 10:53 PM
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Ummm. I knew that! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I always like “irresistible forward, momentum“. Clark Terry, when appraising Miles Davis‘s 1972 record on the corner, lamented the difference between the rock beats and Miles jazz background. The difference, he said, was simply the difference between jumping up and down, in a stationary kind of place and forward movement like a train going down the tracks. He wasn’t wrong in fact, when Clark talked miles shut up. that didn’t prevent Miles from doing whatever he wanted. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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That’s a really interesting example. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
To me swing is wave like propulsion forward. But that’s as much as I’ve got.
Playing even or “straight” is like surfing the crest of the wave, allowing the wave to handle the propulsion. Kind of “floating over” the wave.
I love this stuff, wish I was actually better at doing it!
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I've held off posting in this thread until now in the hope that I can make a coherent statement about swing. First thing is, I don't worry about or pay any attention to notating it - since I don't notate anything.
The main thing I want to say is that for me swing is elusive, and this bothers me. I feel like I should be professional enough, even tho I don't gig, to 'turn it on and turn it off' .... or have it on call, but that eludes me. Always has.
There have been times back in the day when I swung like a mofo, just out of my head, maybe even pro-level. Then later listening back to it I would wonder, "How in the f**k did I do that?"
Believe me I've thought this over from every angle I can think of. The how of it, the should I just get out of the way and let it happen? or can I 'practice' it, etc. etc. etc. Swing seems to be an elusive knob / handle / control to get a hold of ... for me anyway. It's not natural but when I swing it's the most natural thing in the world, lol.Last edited by ChazFromCali; 02-24-2023 at 01:55 PM.
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^ I have that experience of the swing or excitement eluding me in my playing and I can't conceptualize how to get it. I get hung up sometimes because I'm new at my instrument, only been playing organ for about 3 years although I started jazz in 04. I think I figured out a really good comparison that helps with grasping it though. Others have brought this up before. I think it's like surfing. You have the continuous steady state of the ride which is like the minimum good feeling of swing, but then you want to do some exciting stuff also to elevate the swing. Also your technique has to support you otherwise you'll fall off, in either discipline. So yeah you can practice it. Practice your technical skills so they don't hinder you, then practice getting in the flow plus doing some exciting stuff.
Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 02-24-2023 at 07:53 AM.
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If you're not getting in a rhythm because of notes, there is the official Clint melody notes paradigm of: scales, arps, intervals, chromatics.
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Welcome to swing club. Originally Posted by kris
The first rule of swing club is you do not talk about swing club.
The second rule of swing club is you DO NOT talk about about swing club.
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I like that! Especially "irresistible"... that a great descriptor! Originally Posted by NSJ
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To augment the differentiation between movement and jumping up and down (Clark Terry), we have this:
Charlie Parker on bebop:
“It’s just music! Just trying to play clean and looking for the pretty notes. The beat with a bop band is with the music, against it, behind it. It pushes it, helps it. Help is the big thing. It has no continuity of beat, no steady ‘chunk-chunk’ that jazz has, and that’s why bop is more flexible. “
What does this mean? It’s DYNAMIC. The sound of surprise. Jazz is way different than rock in at least one fundamental sense: the bass and drums are never static.
Philly Joe used brushes behind Miles; when Trane took the chorus, he changed over to sticks.
Speaking of dynamic: syncopated snare drum patterns are not just for drummers.
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Just Subdivide and you can get any swing feel, if you want to notate etc... It's just most of the time ... time is Live, and is easier to just use verbal terms.
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Eh... if swing was that easy, all the swing beats on keyboards and drum machines would actually swing... they do not, not to my ears anyway. Just because the math is right doesn't mean it's a good swing. IMHO I think "swing" is at least one musical concept that has the human element- e.g. IMperfection- as a key component to the sum of it's parts.
It is indeed a "feel thing."
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Bill Evans said the same thing on an interview on WKCR, Originally Posted by NSJ
He was imploring Miles not to go in that type of direction, on the radio!
I don't think Miles' mind was changed!
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It can be a feel... and if you have and know the feels ...it's easy. But personally that human element is just to much work to notate. Because we... (bands I've worked with) don't just play a 1 bar patterns over and over. The strong weak accent patterns as well as how far we stretch the triplets, (subdivide within patterns), phrases ...is just to much work for most swing beats on keyboards and Dr machines. And generally would be a waste of time. That would be that word... vanilla LOL. Nothing wrong or bad... but what it is. Swing is a live feel. Phrasing changes all the time. Locking in a pocket is simple... right. Just lock in and stay tight.
One can just start with a shuffle... 12/8 or whatever Time sig. you want. When you subdivide you have notational tools. 24/8... it's all about the triplet... or 3 against 2.
I mean when one arranges...say a sax soli section you use standard notation, accents, slurs etc... and jazz instrumental idiomatic and verbal BS. And unless a section is use to working with each other...they usually just follow the lead alto etc... Again I believe swing can be taught , and it's not a magic feel. You just need to know what musical organizations are used. ( and you need some technical skills... chops etc..) I studied with some well established and working drummers... they sure can break it down... notationally.
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just to emphasise - talk to drummers… they can indeed break it down Originally Posted by Reg
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Speaking of/to jazz drummers, I saw this video recently on Chad LB's channel. Draw-dropping. But also insanely complicated, at least to me.
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I don’t like carrots I like potatoes.
Everything’s complicated until you learn it
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Do you think it's possible that some people just CAN'T learn some stuff? We've all heard "they have no rhythm/they can't dance" before, in my experiences it sometimes turns out to be absolutely true. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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the fact that I really can’t teach some people does not mean that they can’t learn haha Originally Posted by ruger9
So I don’t really know.
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No joke there - we each learn in our own way. There’s no “one size fits all” in teaching, but few teachers (of anything) seem to understand this. No “method” works for everyone, despite what so many teachers believe. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I think the key to effective teaching is identifying the way(s) each student takes in and processes the most and most useful information. There are even many ways of practicing, and some are more productive than others for each of us.
It helps to set goals and establish milestones to measure progress toward those goals. But even the speed of the journey has to be appropriate for each student. Many teachers blame those who don’t seem to make “enough” progress - but the failure is often in setting inappropriate goals or sticking to a preset approach to teaching that ignores the student’s innate approach to learning.
I’ve taught biologic and physical sciences at a healthcare university for decades and been recognized by both students and colleagues for it (I reached the rank of Professor in 1993). But I’ve been a terrible music teacher whenever I've tried because I didn’t take enough time or make enough effort to understand the above for music students.
Procrustes was a terrible role model for teachers. Why so many emulate him remains a mystery to me
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yea Cliff... your in the right direction. I think we played most of those grooves last night...LOL. Great players and worth the time checking out. It does remind me of why I always say.... Get your technical skill together 1st Originally Posted by CliffR
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Thanks Reg!
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Jazz is hip, cool, exciting, sophisticated, and it swings like a mofo, it swings baby, it swings. Like the song says, if you're not swinging, "then it don't mean a thang."
Jazz has to have that great feeling, it has to convey hip, cool, exciting, pleasing, and with jazz, sophisticated feelings to the listener; and always remember that the first listener is the player. Improve your listening skills, and you'll automatically improve your playing.
It's got to swing man, it's got to make you wanna move, bob your head, tap your foot, make you smile, feel good. Maybe even described in more artistic terms, it's like a pimp walk. He's walking down the street on Melrose Ave, looking hip and cool. He has a confident smile on his face, and he's looking like he's extremely satisfied. He's got a pretty girl on his arm, or walking 3 feet behind him (player's choice). Either way, she's dressed to the nines, and she's carrying bags from stores where they sell designer clothes; and looking happy to be there.
The pimp's walk, the gate is confident and straight, and it's right on time. The pimp walks like he's favoring one leg a little bit, even though both of his legs are perfectly fine. And believe me, the gold and jewels on his watch are real.
In summary: it's that swagger.
Swing feel, artistically speaking, can be thought of as that swagger.
Jazz has that swagger, and you can take that to the bank.
Peace, Love, and music!
Now get off your butt's and get out there and help promote jazz music. Keep abreast of it, find out what jazz musician are coming to your local area, and go out to the shows. Especially jazz guitar, since this is a jazz guitar forum, but all jazz artists, who are good. Furthermore, tell your friends about the shows, guys or lady cats who aren't jazz aficionado's yet, but who you think might enjoy the music. Take them, or get them to come to the shows with you, to make our jazz community bigger. I would like to see a world, with an even MORE vibrant jazz community, where more talented people are able to actually put some money in their pockets from being a jazz artist. It just takes us, getting off our butt's and supporting them, and helping them, and jazz, grow their audiences even larger.
That's my PSA for jazz and jazz guitar.
Hallelujah!
Last edited by James Haze; 03-13-2023 at 02:23 AM.
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Originally Posted by Reg
Maybe swing is ultimately feel because the mechanics here is technical chops that come as unconscious micro-techniques acquired by the hands with time and experience. Focus on the rhythm as scored tends to be on the onset of the lengths; whereas the release of the lengths is also part of it - just that you can't really "do" that, you have to let it happen. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I think the ability to subdivide not only allows playing shorter unit lengths but playing any length (where that length is some unit(s) plus a fractional remainder, that fractional part being added to the beginning and/or end). The precision of those remainders even with slower tempos is directly proportional to how fast a tempo one can coherently hear/feel/play. The sound of swing is a fat "beat width" which comes from being able to not only place the beginning but also the end of the lengths (the faster one's high speed playing ability the more precise the remainder terminations of the lengths).
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To understand what's going on we must first get acquainted with triplets and shuffle rhythm.
From there we need to grasp that there are different degrees of shuffle. In a DAW software plug the designation typically is "percentage of swing", where 100% means perfect triplets (a forth triplet plus an eight triplet), and 0% means straight, non dotted eights. We then understand there's an infinite number of fractions of percentages that the band has to negotiate. Call that "feel", if you like.
But there's more to it; The rhythmic pulse is not only a function of swing percentage, but also of accentuation, i.e how hard you hit the note on the beat relative to the the eight that follows. There's an infinite number of dynamic contrasts between ppp and fff, another aspect of feel.
One more thing; the space inbetween the notes, i.e the length of the respective note. The longer the pause, the more staccato the rhythm. The shorter the pause, the more legato the rhythm. There's an infinite number of choices and your combination of these attributes determine the pulse of the rhythm.
The lead sheet notation is written like straight eights (or sometimes dotted eights) but is supposed to be played with "swing feel", that is negotiated by the band on a case by case basis.
A few reasons why this question pops up repeatedly:
Traditional staff notation (and classic music) doesn't include swing.
Classic rock and pop music from the 60s going forward typically don't swing. (the swinging 60s really didn't swing much at all). People that never listened to jazz all of a sudden and for some reason want to play jazz, but are estranged from jazz harmony and rhythm. To get a feel for this music you just have to listen and train your ears.
The DAW doesn't swing, because as you now know, just setting a percentage is not enough.
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