Pat Martino greatest improviser on fast tempos?

[MikkoKarhula]

Hi

Third lick was impossible! I can't imagine how someone can improvise something like that. I can barely hit the right notes in that tempo.

Pat Martino had overwhelming stamina and innovativeness in his improvisations. That came true greatly in his live recordings where he played fast solos with non-stop ideas over many minutes without any hint of hesitation.

Here is three of his licks found from live recordings in Youtube.

Cheers, Mikko

Lähetetty minun SM-A035G laitteesta Tapatalkilla

[rob taft]

I don't attach the word "greatest" to art. For me what separated Pat Martino from other guitarists was not his technical ability at fast tempos as there are a number of musicians today that are blazingly fast.
What blows me away about Pat Martino's soloing is the drive and weight of his notes. There is a sense of forward motion and force that hits you in the chest. In my opinion, it is one thing that folks who copy his solos never get right. The notes are there but the urgency and drive are lacking.

[Alter]

Tal Farlow was also great at high tempos. From more modern ones, Ron Affif comes to mind, mind blowing speed and technique.

[princeplanet]

Like many other great improvisors in Jazz on any instrument (but certainly not all), Pat had pet devices, moreso than pet licks, so obviously he is not playing lines that he is 100% making up on the spot for the first time (has anybody ever done that at that speed?). What he is doing, is he is stitching together his well rehearsed devices in such a clever way that it gives each of his lines the impression of uniqueness.

Nothing new there, if someone doesn't understand that Parker was doing essentially the same kind of thing, they should check out the Thomas Owens dissertation where he systematically outlines over 200 devices that were in continual use, despite the fact that Bird played completely different sounding solos, sometime in back to back takes!

Now, just because we feel we know this, it does not mean we can really fathom how this is realised in the minds of these great Titans! Probably a combo of fast ears, fast mind, fast fingers and prodigious memory. Oh, and let's not forget consummate taste! ....

FWIW, I agree that Pat was (and remains) untouchable at the illusion of creating freshly minted endless lines in long solos, in terms of dexterity, sophistication and, for want of a better term, "coolness". Yep, I'm gonna go there, Pat's pre aneurism recordings (studio and live- including, or even especially, as sideman) are just cooler than everybody except maybe Wes and GB, in my opinion. You guys will argue this claim, citing GG or Joe Pass, Herb, Barney, Burrell or a host of other more modern players in the last 50 years, and that's fine, but despite being a lot of things which would usually lead to uncool playing - he's white, skinny, nerdy etc - if one listens without prejudice, you hear a kind of contoured melodicism in his lines dripping with impossible cool, up there with the likes of Dexter, Mobley, Rollins, J Mclean, or even Sco.

But where he surpasses the other guitar greats of his era, I reckon, is in his unrelenting stamina and flawless articulation, all with those heavy strings and high action! I have never heard anyone come close to sustaining that kind of cooker pressure for so long, and still be able to continually surprise and delight.

Can we agree that the Holy Trinity of Hard Bop Jazz Guitar is Wes, GB and Pat? But listen to the Willis Jackson and Don Patterson albums and tell me Pat's playing does not surpass GB and Wes for sustained invention. I mean, sure, Wes is King of groove, feel and hipness and GB is King of impossible bursts of brilliant flashiness. And both had way more rhythmic and dynamic variation than Pat (which is probably a reason why he is often not preferred over the others). But his thing was to engage you with his hypnotic relentlessness, and, whilst not for everyone, demanded an unparalleled ability to continually spin line upon line where the line's contour was always compelling enough that it didn't need dynamic or rhythmic variation to hold your attention.

That is why I never agree when people insist it's all about 1. Rhythm / Phrasing. 2. Dynamic expression. And finally, 3. The notes. Pat Martino remains an outstanding exception, in my book, who shows you can be compelling with (in the main) a stream of unending notes! And the fact that no one else has come close to being that compelling playing continuous 16ths (and many have tried, even some on this Forum), is surely testament to Pat Martino being truly one of a kind!

[AllanAllen]

Like many other great improvisors in Jazz on any instrument (but certainly not all), Pat had pet devices, moreso than pet licks, so obviously he is not playing lines that he is 100% making up on the spot for the first time (has anybody ever done that at that speed?). What he is doing, is he is stitching together his well rehearsed devices in such a clever way that it gives each of his lines the impression of uniqueness.

Nothing new there, if someone doesn't understand that Parker was doing essentially the same kind of thing, they should check out the Thomas Owens dissertation where he systematically outlines over 200 devices that were in continual use, despite the fact that Bird played completely different sounding solos, sometime in back to back takes!

Now, just because we feel we know this, it does not mean we can really fathom how this is realised in the minds of these great Titans! Probably a combo of fast ears, fast mind, fast fingers and prodigious memory. Oh, and let's not forget consummate taste! ....

FWIW, I agree that Pat was (and remains) untouchable at the illusion of creating freshly minted endless lines in long solos, in terms of dexterity, sophistication and, for want of a better term, "coolness". Yep, I'm gonna go there, Pat's pre aneurism recordings (studio and live- including, or even especially, as sideman) are just cooler than everybody except maybe Wes and GB, in my opinion. You guys will argue this claim, citing GG or Joe Pass, Herb, Barney, Burrell or a host of other more modern players in the last 50 years, and that's fine, but despite being a lot of things which would usually lead to uncool playing - he's white, skinny, nerdy etc - if one listens without prejudice, you hear a kind of contoured melodicism in his lines dripping with impossible cool, up there with the likes of Dexter, Mobley, Rollins, J Mclean, or even Sco.

But where he surpasses the other guitar greats of his era, I reckon, is in his unrelenting stamina and flawless articulation, all with those heavy strings and high action! I have never heard anyone come close to sustaining that kind of cooker pressure for so long, and still be able to continually surprise and delight.

Can we agree that the Holy Trinity of Hard Bop Jazz Guitar is Wes, GB and Pat? But listen to the Willis Jackson and Don Patterson albums and tell me Pat's playing does not surpass GB and Wes for sustained invention. I mean, sure, Wes is King of groove, feel and hipness and GB is King of impossible bursts of brilliant flashiness. And both had way more rhythmic and dynamic variation than Pat (which is probably a reason why he is often not preferred over the others). But his thing was to engage you with his hypnotic relentlessness, and, whilst not for everyone, demanded an unparalleled ability to continually spin line upon line where the line's contour was always compelling enough that it didn't need dynamic or rhythmic variation to hold your attention.

That is why I never agree when people insist it's all about 1. Rhythm / Phrasing. 2. Dynamic expression. And finally, 3. The notes. Pat Martino remains an outstanding exception, in my book, who shows you can be compelling with (in the main) a stream of unending notes! And the fact that no one else has come close to being that compelling playing continuous 16ths (and many have tried, even some on this Forum), is surely testament to Pat Martino being truly one of a kind!

Pat Martino has never caught my interest. I’ve listened to thousands of hours of jazz radio and I’ve never heard a solo, looked up who played and it was Pat Martino.

I know I must’ve listened to an album or two of his but they didn’t make any impression.

So for those reasons he’s not in my top 3 hard bop guitar players.

[ragman1]

Martino's endless lines can grate after a while. You end up thinking 'Here we go again'. Now, Pass, on the other hand, could play blisteringly fast but always sounded interesting and melodic. Sorry about the comparison, but it's honestly said.

[princeplanet]

Pat Martino has never caught my interest. I’ve listened to thousands of hours of jazz radio and I’ve never heard a solo, looked up who played and it was Pat Martino.

I know I must’ve listened to an album or two of his but they didn’t make any impression.

So for those reasons he’s not in my top 3 hard bop guitar players.

I said exactly the same thing for many years, but I was basing it on only a handful of albums that sounded unexceptional to me, and TBH, still do. But like for Grant Green, ya gotta dig a little deeper for the gooood stuff. Spend a night youtubing or spotifying Pat with Don Patterson , and then Pat with Willis Jackson (several albums with each).

You'll hear a different Pat...

[princeplanet]

Martino's endless lines can grate after a while. You end up thinking 'Here we go again'. Now, Pass, on the other hand, could play blisteringly fast but always sounded interesting and melodic. Sorry about the comparison, but it's honestly said.

Yeah, see, if you like the Pass solo more than Pat's on the same tune from El Hombre, well, I just don't know what to tell ya Diff'rent strokes I guess...

[AllanAllen]

I said exactly the same thing for many years, but I was basing it on only a handful of albums that sounded unexceptional to me, and TBH, still do. But like for Grant Green, ya gotta dig a little deeper for the gooood stuff. Spend a night youtubing or spotifying Pat with Don Patterson , and then Pat with Willis Jackson (several albums with each).

You'll hear a different Pat...

so far so good

[ragman1]

Yeah, see, if you like the Pass solo more than Pat's on the same tune from El Hombre, well, I just don't know what to tell ya Diff'rent strokes I guess...

Well, here it is :-)

Of course it's great. I like them both for different reasons. But, personally, at the end of the day, I'd still take Pass to the desert island, I guess; I find it easier on the ear. As you say, it's all personal taste, etc. Doesn't really matter, does it?

[Jimmy blue note]

When I want fast guitar and thrills, I listen to BabyMetal. Oh yeah!

[Christian Miller]

I’m not sure any guitarist has managed the sheer level of rhythmic phrasing and musicality the best pianists and sax players have been able to achieve.

The sort of thing where you listen to Bird at 320 and he’s still playing triplets and phrasing elegantly. Guitarists tend to go into machine gun mode, or the legato players tend to be even in a different way. just end sounding like notes. It’s just really hard.

Pat is a good as anyone on guitar has ever been. Mind you… Billy Bean at his best…. Getting there

[Jimmy blue note]

Pat is a good as anyone on guitar has ever been. Mind you… Billy Bean at his best…. Getting there

Scrambled

[princeplanet]

...
Pat is a good as anyone on guitar has ever been. Mind you… Billy Bean at his best…. Getting there

Agreed!

[Christian Miller]

Pat found his own solution. Tbh if you are going to alternate pick in that way you are going to be locked into the 8th grid which is not necessarily the way with other instruments. Otoh the alternate picking does seem to allow players reliable access to the rhythmic pocket if you can defeat the considerable technical challenges as Pat so clearly did.

So his way of finding negative space and interest to my ears (esp after he relearned) is by shifting the contour of his lines and the top notes and bottom notes in a similar way perhaps to a Bach partita or something. Once you key into that it’s completely mesmerising.

[princeplanet]

so far so good

It's so great you searched some out, but there's so much more that you'll find that, in my opinion far exceeds this. Keep searchin', I'd be surprised if you didn't find something that will change your mind about Pat.

[charlieparker]

I said exactly the same thing for many years, but I was basing it on only a handful of albums that sounded unexceptional to me, and TBH, still do. But like for Grant Green, ya gotta dig a little deeper for the gooood stuff. Spend a night youtubing or spotifying Pat with Don Patterson , and then Pat with Willis Jackson (several albums with each).

You'll hear a different Pat...

I am not going to deny Pat's greatness, but I saw Pat live one time and it was intense. In my opinion, Pat is great in smaller doses, like 2 or 3 songs at time. After that I get fatigued. Not a bad thing, but it is different than say a Jim Hall.

[Jimmy Smith]

Of all the 'greatest' statements, this one could be the most accurate. Many play competently at up tempos, but Pat retains his tremendous sense of momentum and musicality. Although it would have to be among guitarists. He'd have to bump up a few levels to get to Jimmy Smith level. :P

1:58

[PMB]

Yeah, see, if you like the Pass solo more than Pat's on the same tune from El Hombre, well, I just don't know what to tell ya Diff'rent strokes I guess...

One of the most admired jazz guitar solos of all time and Pat was only 22! In a recent interview, Jesse van Ruller admitted that he never really transcribed complete solos apart from this one. Jesse was so enamoured by it that he then spent the next couple of years trying to remove its traces from his own playing.

[Christian Miller]

El Hombres some of my favourite guitar playing.

[sgcim]

Pat found his own solution. Tbh if you are going to alternate pick in that way you are going to be locked into the 8th grid which is not necessarily the way with other instruments. Otoh the alternate picking does seem to allow players reliable access to the rhythmic pocket if you can defeat the considerable technical challenges as Pat so clearly did.

So his way of finding negative space and interest to my ears (esp after he relearned) is by shifting the contour of his lines and the top notes and bottom notes in a similar way perhaps to a Bach partita or something. Once you key into that it’s completely mesmerising.

Pat was said to have practiced 36 hours in a row once!
After a pianist friend just emailed me a video of Pasquale Grasso playing Cherokee with that Emmett dude, with a note saying, "This guy has great chops, but he says nothing musically", it further strengthened my belief that alt. picking is the best way to play jazz.
A video of PG alternate picking on a med. tempo tune further strengthened my thesis. He sounded great!
I should state that after hearing PG playing solo guitar on one of those lessons that a friend of mine bought, PG is the greatest SOLO jazz guitarist alive.
As far as MUSICALLY improvising fast in jazz guitar, my opinion is that Jimmy Raney and Tal Farlow (only in the 50s!) are still the best IMHO.
Many times people have remarked that they put on a Jimmy Raney record, and were sure that they had put it on at 45rpm instead of 33rpm, only to find that it was indeed at 33RPM!
I experienced this myself, when I sped up a backing track that I usually play on to 1.5 faster than I normally play on it, and I felt that I sounded like Jimmy Raney.

[Cunamara]

Allow me to sound the dissenting note here. So many jazz solos – on all instruments – just end up being boring. They sound like scales, they don't sound like music. There's no dynamics, there is little emotional expression, it's just a long string of notes at an even tempo. I guess I just don't like long strings of eighth notes, it does not matter on what instrument. They go on and on for too long. A number of the solos pointed to in this thread fall into that category for me; maybe for somebody else that is exciting, I don't know. A part of the problem is the short sustain favored by jazz guitarists means they can't hold a note, unlike a trumpet or sax, forcing them into these short durations.

Now, Pat Martino's comping on "Just Friends" on the other hand is hot! And his statement of the melody is outstanding. The solo's just not very interesting, the out solo is better.

[silverfoxx]

Martino's endless lines can grate after a while. You end up thinking 'Here we go again'. Now, Pass, on the other hand, could play blisteringly fast but always sounded interesting and melodic. Sorry about the comparison, but it's honestly said.

I had the good fortune to meet Joe Pass when he frequently visited the UK and met up with my late Tutor, his friend., other visitors were Louis Stewart, Barney, & Herb Ellis etc., all of whom good humoured
no snobs.Good company & great players

[charlieparker]

Allow me to sound the dissenting note here. So many jazz solos – on all instruments – just end up being boring. They sound like scales, they don't sound like music. There's no dynamics, there is little emotional expression, it's just a long string of notes at an even tempo. I guess I just don't like long strings of eighth notes, it does not matter on what instrument. They go on and on for too long. A number of the solos pointed to in this thread fall into that category for me; maybe for somebody else that is exciting, I don't know. A part of the problem is the short sustain favored by jazz guitarists means they can't hold a note, unlike a trumpet or sax, forcing them into these short durations.

Now, Pat Martino's comping on "Just Friends" on the other hand is hot! And his statement of the melody is outstanding. The solo's just not very interesting, the out solo is better.

I mean some of Bach's music is a long string of eighth notes, but I sort of agree with you. For me it's more about the amount of concentration required. I can only listen a song or two like that before fatigue sets in.

[Bach5G]

“What blows me away about Pat Martino's soloing is the drive and weight of his notes. There is a sense of forward motion and force that hits you in the chest.”

Yup. One of a kind.