How to Think About Chord Changes (suggestions from a horn player)

**Peter C** · 02-03-2023, 08:29 PM

JFYI, I gave up on this thread and deleted my posts leaving 2 dots (..), including this OP, which will explain some things. It seems admin restored the original thread.

**JCat** · 02-04-2023, 01:47 AM

Yeah, I agree with this.
It's about how to think about chord changes when improvising and that the answer is not to think, but trust your ears. In order to do this, we first have to do our homework, meaning we have to internalize the changes. In the shedding process, we sometimes would have to consult theory to figure out how things fit together. This is when a bit of chord scale theory sometimes could be helpful. Also bear in mind that not all songs have an obvious "home", that the key-center is sometimes a moving target, for example Coltrane's "Giant Steps" or Gillespie's "Con Alma". We first need to do our homework, then we can trust our ears.

Now, when comping, we really need to be particular and nail the changes. In order to do this, we first have to do our homework. Once internalized, we'll be able to recall a song just by a brief glance at a chord chart.

**kris** · 02-04-2023, 02:05 AM

First of all, a musician should have good ears.
That is why it is worth practicing ear training.
You have to hear the music.And this is even more complicated.

**alltunes** · 02-04-2023, 08:51 AM

Hmmm how can you not think about the chord changes? In Autumn Leaves don’t you need to think “here comes the minor ii-V-i now?

**Tal_175** · 02-04-2023, 09:01 AM

The problem with describing the improvisation process is that the only way for people to understand what you are saying is if they already know the process themselves, lol. Otherwise they'll be terribly misled by your description. Like the second and third points he made are mine fields.

**Christian Miller** · 02-04-2023, 09:12 AM

I didn’t watch the OP and don’t intend to. But I’ll comment anyway!!

errr… that was it

**Mark Kleinhaut** · 02-04-2023, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

I didn’t watch the OP and don’t intend to. But I’ll comment anyway!!

errr… that was it

me neither, do we have to?

**Christian Miller** · 02-04-2023, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut

me neither, do we have to?

its never stopped me before

**John A.** · 02-04-2023, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by alltunes

Hmmm how can you not think about the chord changes? In Autumn Leaves don’t you need to think “here comes the minor ii-V-i now?

No, you don’t have to. For example you can simplify it and think of it as V-i, ii-i, or just as i. Each of those ways has implications for the palette of notes you draw from. You also should think about how explicitly you’re going to outline/arpeggiate the changes. The "thinking about" is what you practice, so that you can hear and play these sounds without explicit detailed thought when playing with other people.

**John A.** · 02-04-2023, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

I didn’t watch the OP and don’t intend to. But I’ll comment anyway!!

errr… that was it

I didn’t read this post that I’m quoting, but I nonetheless object to it on moral grounds. Or was that coffee grounds?

**Bobby Timmons** · 02-04-2023, 01:08 PM

The video said to think in descriptive terms beyond only the names such as in number or this is a minor 2-5 or this is a backdoor 2-5 etc. Which is true. You guys are mad at theory.

**pauln** · 02-04-2023, 03:29 PM

Seems to me that every time the video guy begins to prescribe
towards the right direction, he turns off and drops it; overall he
wants to say,"Internalize the song and trust your ear", but then
offers a path so as to not do so, like the Roman Numerals. The
numerals are at least an abstraction from the specific, so being
a general relative schema, but it is corrupted employing global
labels of the key to describe local changes, e.g., 2-5-1's where
they aren't resolving to the root of the key, but instead a "local
key center". Once you displace one's reference registration for
the key, you are committing to remember that reassignment of
numerals, then adjusting in returning to key, or in moving into
another displacement assignment and recalling that, and then
repeatedly tracking whether (and where) your assignments are
displaced (or not) throughout the whole of the progression.

As far as internalizing and hearing "how it goes", are the Roman
Numerals serving as "silent" symbolic proxies for how it sounds
(so, not aural) or do they aurally inform of the sound (so, they
are redundant, not needed)? The numerals system and the local
key center theory seem misguided, misleading, even misplaced,
coming from more of a "don't trust your ear" approach. So what
happens when you are asked to learn a nice tune like Drown In
My Own Tears and discover that the full form cycle is a long four
minutes and comprises seventy-two chord changes? (But just try
listening to the tune (if you are familiar with passing chords) and
you will probably be able to hear and recall "how it goes" in full.

Near the end he get's it right that on stage in performance you
have to have already learned "how it goes" by ear, but presents
the method to do that as having used various symbolic systems
to get it internalized instead of directly hearing how it goes, so
rather not trusting ears from the beginning in learning the tunes.

He is reflecting the popular idea that it is best to use and trust
your ears, but then not exclusively suggesting that for learning
songs. The ears don't just magically come to know "how it goes"
through some internalization process based on the assembly of
serial symbolic representations. They do so learning it by the ear
hearing "how it goes", which is not an analytical process but an
abstract aural phenomenological Gestalt, for which there are no
surefire step by step methods of acquisition of understanding.

**Christian Miller** · 02-04-2023, 04:13 PM

I’m not mad at theory. I’m mad at 19th century Germans.

**Tal_175** · 02-04-2023, 04:46 PM

I'm always aware of the chord I'm on, the chord I'm going to, and the form. But enough about me, turns out Rich Perry also thinks about the chords, “What else would you be thinking about?”:

What to Think About While Improvising: Jazz Chords and More - Jazzadvice

**docsteve** · 02-04-2023, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by alltunes;[URL="tel:1246560"

1246560[/URL]]Hmmm how can you not think about the chord changes? In Autumn Leaves don’t you need to think “here comes the minor ii-V-i now?

No. I think in terms of „where’s that going“.

**Tal_175** · 02-04-2023, 04:47 PM

Actually some players are on the record for saying that they thought about their shopping lists when they improvised.
Those players were from an era when they played gigs 6 nights a week for 40 years. They were bored out of their heads playing ATTYA but the money was good.