The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    JFYI, I gave up on this thread and deleted my posts leaving 2 dots (..), including this OP, which will explain some things. It seems admin restored the original thread.
    Last edited by Peter C; 02-09-2023 at 05:42 AM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Yeah, I agree with this.
    It's about how to think about chord changes when improvising and that the answer is not to think, but trust your ears. In order to do this, we first have to do our homework, meaning we have to internalize the changes. In the shedding process, we sometimes would have to consult theory to figure out how things fit together. This is when a bit of chord scale theory sometimes could be helpful. Also bear in mind that not all songs have an obvious "home", that the key-center is sometimes a moving target, for example Coltrane's "Giant Steps" or Gillespie's "Con Alma". We first need to do our homework, then we can trust our ears.

    Now, when comping, we really need to be particular and nail the changes. In order to do this, we first have to do our homework. Once internalized, we'll be able to recall a song just by a brief glance at a chord chart.
    Last edited by JCat; 02-04-2023 at 08:17 AM.

  4. #3

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    First of all, a musician should have good ears.
    That is why it is worth practicing ear training.
    You have to hear the music.And this is even more complicated.

  5. #4

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    Hmmm how can you not think about the chord changes? In Autumn Leaves don’t you need to think “here comes the minor ii-V-i now?

  6. #5

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    The problem with describing the improvisation process is that the only way for people to understand what you are saying is if they already know the process themselves, lol. Otherwise they'll be terribly misled by your description. Like the second and third points he made are mine fields.

  7. #6

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    I didn’t watch the OP and don’t intend to. But I’ll comment anyway!!

    errr… that was it

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I didn’t watch the OP and don’t intend to. But I’ll comment anyway!!

    errr… that was it
    me neither, do we have to?

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
    me neither, do we have to?
    its never stopped me before

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by alltunes
    Hmmm how can you not think about the chord changes? In Autumn Leaves don’t you need to think “here comes the minor ii-V-i now?
    No, you don’t have to. For example you can simplify it and think of it as V-i, ii-i, or just as i. Each of those ways has implications for the palette of notes you draw from. You also should think about how explicitly you’re going to outline/arpeggiate the changes. The "thinking about" is what you practice, so that you can hear and play these sounds without explicit detailed thought when playing with other people.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    I didn’t watch the OP and don’t intend to. But I’ll comment anyway!!

    errr… that was it
    I didn’t read this post that I’m quoting, but I nonetheless object to it on moral grounds. Or was that coffee grounds?
    Last edited by John A.; 02-05-2023 at 11:50 PM.

  12. #11

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    The video said to think in descriptive terms beyond only the names such as in number or this is a minor 2-5 or this is a backdoor 2-5 etc. Which is true. You guys are mad at theory.

  13. #12

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    Seems to me that every time the video guy begins to prescribe
    towards the right direction, he turns off and drops it; overall he
    wants to say,"Internalize the song and trust your ear", but then
    offers a path so as to not do so, like the Roman Numerals. The
    numerals are at least an abstraction from the specific, so being
    a general relative schema, but it is corrupted employing global
    labels of the key to describe local changes, e.g., 2-5-1's where
    they aren't resolving to the root of the key, but instead a "local
    key center". Once you displace one's reference registration for
    the key, you are committing to remember that reassignment of
    numerals, then adjusting in returning to key, or in moving into
    another displacement assignment and recalling that, and then
    repeatedly tracking whether (and where) your assignments are
    displaced (or not) throughout the whole of the progression.

    As far as internalizing and hearing "how it goes", are the Roman
    Numerals serving as "silent" symbolic proxies for how it sounds
    (so, not aural) or do they aurally inform of the sound (so, they
    are redundant, not needed)? The numerals system and the local
    key center theory seem misguided, misleading, even misplaced,
    coming from more of a "don't trust your ear" approach. So what
    happens when you are asked to learn a nice tune like Drown In
    My Own Tears
    and discover that the full form cycle is a long four
    minutes and comprises seventy-two chord changes? (But just try
    listening to the tune (if you are familiar with passing chords) and
    you will probably be able to hear and recall "how it goes" in full.

    Near the end he get's it right that on stage in performance you
    have to have already learned "how it goes" by ear, but presents
    the method to do that as having used various symbolic systems
    to get it internalized instead of directly hearing how it goes, so
    rather not trusting ears from the beginning in learning the tunes.

    He is reflecting the popular idea that it is best to use and trust
    your ears, but then not exclusively suggesting that for learning
    songs. The ears don't just magically come to know "how it goes"
    through some internalization process based on the assembly of
    serial symbolic representations. They do so learning it by the ear
    hearing "how it goes", which is not an analytical process but an
    abstract aural phenomenological Gestalt, for which there are no
    surefire step by step methods of acquisition of understanding.

  14. #13

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    I’m not mad at theory. I’m mad at 19th century Germans.

  15. #14

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    I'm always aware of the chord I'm on, the chord I'm going to, and the form. But enough about me, turns out Rich Perry also thinks about the chords, “What else would you be thinking about?”:

    What to Think About While Improvising: Jazz Chords and More - Jazzadvice

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by alltunes;[URL="tel:1246560"
    1246560[/URL]]Hmmm how can you not think about the chord changes? In Autumn Leaves don’t you need to think “here comes the minor ii-V-i now?
    No. I think in terms of „where’s that going“.

  17. #16

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    Actually some players are on the record for saying that they thought about their shopping lists when they improvised.
    Those players were from an era when they played gigs 6 nights a week for 40 years. They were bored out of their heads playing ATTYA but the money was good.

  18. #17

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    So much talking. I really do have the attention span of an 8 year old after a Slurpee and two bags of pop rocks.

  19. #18

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    ..
    Last edited by Peter C; 02-06-2023 at 03:48 AM.

  20. #19

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    You guys are so mad at theory that you start posting compulsively and neurotically.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    You guys are so mad at theory that you start posting compulsively and neurotically.
    What have the theorists ever done for us?

  22. #21

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    Bookmarking to watch later. John Raymond can play! Real Feels is such a cool band.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    You guys are so mad at theory that you start posting compulsively and neurotically.
    I think I'll put you on my ignore list...

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    So much talking. I really do have the attention span of an 8 year old after a Slurpee and two bags of pop rocks.
    That sounds like a good theory anger management technique.

  25. #24

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    I’m not mad at theory, just disappointed. Theory, consider yourself grounded. Now go to your room and think about what you’ve done.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    I’m not mad at theory, just disappointed. Theory, consider yourself grounded. Now go to your room and think about what you’ve done.
    Allow you to play competently?

    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    What have the theorists ever done for us?
    Like Bill Evans? Lol