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If you're sounding stiff playing the changes, one solution is to abandon playing the changes altogether. That would work.
Another option is to improve your phrasing and vocabulary by studying players who didn't sound stiff when they played the changes. Charlie Parker is the most obvious choice.
Playing the changes is one of the devices used in jazz improvisation. It happens to be one of the most important and difficult to master. But also nobody improvises by only playing the changes obviously.
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02-08-2023 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
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And sorry if you thought I was being a smart ass in response, but it was actually a serious question.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Hmm, interesting. FWIW, I wasn't totally convinced you weren't responding to my post, either...
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Originally Posted by JCat
"learn"
"play"
"keep up"
You are confounding these verbs in attempting to demonstrate that the following doesn't make sense:
"You don't have to learn the changes because you are supposed to play by ear"
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Originally Posted by pauln
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Originally Posted by pauln
The whole process for me is to be able to aurally identify the parts of the song associated with each symbol.
Now, I also like to do the reverse and listen to a song without knowing the changes and see if I can write the chord symbols for it.
The problem for me, is that for me, my ear isn't good enough to rely on an approach that doesn't involve something like I described. If I listen to a song in realtime I don't track what each individual note is in each voice. I may be able to hear the bass movement sometimes and the chord qualities.
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Originally Posted by pauln
That's how he got so good!
Come to think of it, that goes for all the great ones.
::Last edited by StringNavigator; 02-09-2023 at 01:05 AM.
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This thread is like the Tower Of Babbylon...
The higher the pile gets, the more confused it becomes.
Remember what happened when Father Ted tried to repair the dent in his car with a hammer...
Keep Your Eyes On The Prize!
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Originally Posted by pauln
The video posted in the OP is not suggesting that players are supposed to disregard chord changes. Nor was it suggested that theory is useless. (I like to stress this, as people use these arguments to deflect from the subject).
The clear message (to which I personally subscribe) is to "play the key-centres". If someone finds this boring, it's an indication that he doesn't understand the meaning of the concept. Because in order to play the key-centre one needs to understand the chord progression (learn the changes).
"Eb-major" is clearly not sufficient information. Until we have done our homework.
Example;
Up tempo, two chords per bar.
Assume someone is struggling playing scales, arpeggios and patterns in an attempt to nail every chord. The video offers an alternative approach, another way of thinking about chord changes.
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Originally Posted by JCat
Today when I learn a new song I still use this approach. Now I wish I could just hear these key-centers as well as the chords but I can't. I only point this out since I can see push-back along the lines of: if you would have just tried to use ONLY your ears 35 years ago, you would be able to not use lead sheets.
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Horn players have always been happy generalise changes … I think it occurs less to guitar players because we are chords people.
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Wow, I'm just trying to not play a note that sounds like ballsack over whatever chord is underneath.
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Originally Posted by John A.
Bill said he didn't teach anymore, because students refused to learn music theory.
So he wound up going to Andy LaVerne. one of Bill's few students.
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Originally Posted by sgcim
This may not be the point you were trying to drive home, about theory, but it underscores the fact that the complex nature of high level improvising is a synthesis of many disparate elements. There is not shortcut to the integration of these elements. How you do it, in what order, what your own priorities are and the things you reject are part of that process. People tend to have the strongest advice when they themselves are focusing on one aspect (theory, kinesthetics, phrase vocabulary, lexicon, syntax, feel, listening abilities, intuitive confidence), these are all essential parts of a non linear synthesis.
If someone tells you there's one way to do it, they're right, but that's their story at one point in the big picture. The goal is YOUR big picture.
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Originally Posted by sgcim
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Originally Posted by John A.
Your reply seemed reasonable. But I have no idea.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
This is a layer of complexity on the original question. That said, in terms of 'modern jazz piano' (and even guitar for that matter) most people are emulating Bill Evans to some extent even if they deny it. He's one of the main 'models' we tend to think about. I think that approach, typified by a richly coloured impressionistic harmony, an interactive approach to trio playing and so on, may require a different musical background than, say, playing bop or gypsy jazz. Whether or not this background includes a good understanding of theory, I don't know, but it seems likely and it seems Bill was of the same mind.
However, life's full of surprises.
So Bill's priorities as an artist were different to some other jazz musicians, and his priorities are ones I would think of as becoming standard more with later jazz. I certainly don't think everybody in jazz was interested in 'making a minutes music in a minute's time' for example. Bill Evans often gets quoted because, well, he was very quotable and articulate, but I feel was often voicing a very personal view.
Ethan Iverson for instance has questioned the importance of this ideal of 'instant composition' - I think he has issues with Bill in general though haha. In Ethan's case he wants to centre different things that he feels have fallen by the wayside such as groove and blues, and so on.Last edited by Christian Miller; 02-14-2023 at 08:20 AM.
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Originally Posted by Reg
A Neanderthal standing inside a cave blowing into a dried-out bone or horn was likely considered a cool "effect" back in the day, lol.
Gilad in his collabs with John (the trumpeter featured in this thread, for those who don't know) is covering guitar, piano and bass parts. Delay really helps to fill the sound out and his looping is absolutely seamless. Guy is a veritable one-man orchestra!
He could lose the delay in some passages, but I suppose one can get used to an effect after a time and just kind of integrate it.
Great session at Emmet's Place, duly bookmarked. Thanks.
Aebersold complete - streaming
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