How to Think About Chord Changes (suggestions from a horn player)

[kris]

what about gypsy jazz and Django?

[Bobby Timmons]

That isn't an argument that theory is destructive.

[Christian Miller]

That isn't an argument that theory is destructive.

The logic of this:

Say that this is the proposition in your second to last post:
it is necessary to know theory to improvise jazz.

if you accept Bill Evans is a jazz improviser that knew theory (which he did) it doesn’t follow that that music theory is necessary to improvise jazz.

The proposition is not proven unless we know that every jazz improviser knew theory, which makes this proposition much more easily disproved by counterexample then proved by example.

As in if you find at least one black swan it disproves the proposition that all swans are white, but finding white swans cannot prove the proposition (unless you know you have seen all the swans and all are white.)

Therefore, it only requires one counter example to disprove the rule, right?

So, if you accept Django is a jazz improviser and also didn’t know theory (which seems the case)

it follows that it music theory is unnecessary to improvise jazz. The proposition is disproved.

However - it ALSO does not follow that theory is unhelpful or harmful for the jazz improviser. This is a separate proposition that needs to be argued separately.

There is room for disagreement about definitions. For example - you may not accept that Bill Evans and Django played the same music and call into question the use of the same term ‘jazz’ in this context for different types of music (I would tend to agree) which raises another set of questions such as ‘is it necessary to know theory to play jazz like Bill Evans?’. You may also disagree that Django didn’t know theory because you have a different understanding of the word ‘theory’.

You do kind of need to agree to these base definitions to proceed logically. I’m not clear we’ve ever got that far on JGO haha. Tbh I’m not certain we could agree as to what the colour ‘white’ is or what a ‘swan’ is either.

[Bobby Timmons]

The logic of this:

Say that this is the proposition in your second to last post:
it is necessary to know theory to improvise jazz.

It's necessary for most. Certainly everyone on this forum. That's a pretty vast proportion. Therefore it's really stupid to try to portray it as destructive.

[John A.]

Allow you to play competently?

Israeli scientist isolates ‘satire gene’ | The Times of Israel

There may yet be hope for you, Jimmy. But until this comes to fruition I suggest you eat more spinach to improve your absorption of irony.

[Bobby Timmons]

Israeli scientist isolates ‘satire gene’ | The Times of Israel

There may yet be hope for you, Jimmy. But until this comes to fruition I suggest you eat more spinach to improve your absorption of irony.

I don't consent to assigning fault over precedents that aren't clearly stated. :P

[pauln]

So, if you accept Django is a jazz improviser and also didn’t know theory (which seems the case)...You may also disagree that Django didn’t know theory because you have a different understanding of the word ‘theory’.

Django was absolutely illiterate only learning to write his own
name late in life - his first name he spelled out, his last name
shortened to only three consonants. His basic understanding
was below even that of naive flat Earth. His first travel over to
England he mentioned his surprise and pleasure that their sky
had a moon, too; like the one in the sky back home in France.

[Peter C]

Some of you guys seem to want to throw this forum down the toilet

[Jimmy blue note]

..

I just started reading this thread and I don't really understand how the entire thread grows out of an Original Post of ".."
But that's an inability on my part. 100%

Is this like literary free improvisation, where we begin with a blank slate silence and build up from that?
I'm really intrigued by this twist on the jazz guitar forum, and very imaginative use of content emerging from what appears to be nothing but in actuality is the potential of everything.
Everything. Everywhere. All at once.

OP, this is brilliant. Thank you for posting.

So the title of this thread is Delete This Thread. Can somebody explain to me why somebody would give such a funny Post Modern play on literary humour as a conversation starter? Is this musical Ionesco?

[Jimmy blue note]

Some of you guys seem to want to throw this forum down the toilet

No shit

[Jimmy blue note]

So if I might dare, let me ask you players out there: Can you recall the first time you played a solo that you didn't feel was merely a compendium of things you were taught or just an amalgamation of devices and techniques you picked up off the floor of the practice room?

What I'm asking is, how do you see the dichotomy of "practice material" and Original spontaneous composition, and what, in your mind is the elusive ingredient of the experience that lifts you from playing "stuff" to constructing a solo with a perceivable sense of self?.

When does a solo become a solo? Is there something that changed in your use of chord changes and their purpose?

[Jimmy blue note]

That isn't an argument that theory is destructive.

Yes it is

[Bobby Timmons]

So if I might dare, let me ask you players out there: Can you recall the first time you played a solo that you didn't feel was merely a compendium of things you were taught or just an amalgamation of devices and techniques you picked up off the floor of the practice room?

What I'm asking is, how do you see the dichotomy of "practice material" and Original spontaneous composition, and what, in your mind is the elusive ingredient of the experience that lifts you from playing "stuff" to constructing a solo with a perceivable sense of self?.

When does a solo become a solo? Is there something that changed in your use of chord changes and their purpose?

No, it's not at all transcending practice material. It's simply getting the melody in the groove, sequencing ideas and gaining momentum, then the whole solo takes shape. This requires having material banked and following the rules somewhat. However, you can also gain momentum hitting off notes and blue notes too.

[Bobby Timmons]

Some of you guys seem to want to throw this forum down the toilet

The mad at theory gang needs to calm the fuck down and accept that theory is part of making music and quit being pieces of shit to people who just want to start threads to have a peaceable discussion.

I just started reading this thread and I don't really understand how the entire thread grows out of an Original Post of ".."
But that's an inability on my part. 100%

Is this like literary free improvisation, where we begin with a blank slate silence and build up from that?
I'm really intrigued by this twist on the jazz guitar forum, and very imaginative use of content emerging from what appears to be nothing but in actuality is the potential of everything.
Everything. Everywhere. All at once.

OP, this is brilliant. Thank you for posting.

So the title of this thread is Delete This Thread. Can somebody explain to me why somebody would give such a funny Post Modern play on literary humour as a conversation starter? Is this musical Ionesco?

There was an OP but the mad at theory gang brought their usual ridiculous toxicity and the OP just wants out. Same thing has happened to me.

[Christian Miller]

Yes it is

oh no it isn’t

[Jimmy blue note]

oh no it isn’t

I loved this Python sketch, to the point that it's become verbatum conversational vernacular in some of my circles. But I hadn't actually watched it in years. Revisiting it in the context of this thread though, OMG! Spot on and hilarious.
I love this theatre of the absurd that's this thread. It's classic, if I do say so myself.
Keep it up. It's through laughing that we can cope with that which we cannot change.
OP, thank you for posting that YouTube video. I just sent it to my student. We have this conversation a lot lately. He was steeped in the intense deification of chord outlining and II V I licks and it's turned into a straight jacket for his creativity. Listening and hearing is a skill that needs to be acquired. How that's done is a very personal and individual task.
Good luck with your own journey. I'm still vexed by the ".." posts but I love the sense of space they impart. Bril!

[Christian Miller]

So if I might dare, let me ask you players out there: Can you recall the first time you played a solo that you didn't feel was merely a compendium of things you were taught or just an amalgamation of devices and techniques you picked up off the floor of the practice room?

What I'm asking is, how do you see the dichotomy of "practice material" and Original spontaneous composition, and what, in your mind is the elusive ingredient of the experience that lifts you from playing "stuff" to constructing a solo with a perceivable sense of self?.

When does a solo become a solo? Is there something that changed in your use of chord changes and their purpose?

I think this more important a question to ask than to answer in a way

[AllanAllen]

Some of you guys seem to want to throw this forum down the toilet

Man, we are already in the toilet.

[grahambop]

the mad at theory gang

[Jimmy blue note]

Man, we are already in the toilet.

Who let the dogs in?

[mr. beaumont]

Well, I hope everybody here knows my comment was meant to bring some levity and poke fun at my own short attention span.

Re: theory-- the problem is the name.

Jazz improvisers need a bunch of things. Musical "know-how" is one of them. But I do think people overstress HOW MUCH theory theory you need to know to start playing good jazz music. It's almost like some people like the paralysis of making a huge list of things they need to know before they can even play a simple tune.

[Jimmy blue note]

..

[Reg]

OK... I checked out the vid Peter posted. It’s cool, but It’s not the end or goal, it's just another step in the process. And in general... from a single note perspective... No one is required to do anything…. or play and hear in some musically organized system for hearing and understanding what you hear and try to play. The How, When and why approach does lead somewhere.

But... when you perform with other musicians and in a jazz style. It really helps, and not just YOU. It helps the other musicians, the audience and.... even more important, it helps the actual music. (hearing and understanding Musical Organizational Possibilities)

Even if you have great ears and can play what you hear.... that's again... not the whole picture for many musicians, just another step in the process.

I've been posting this for year, (and lots of other BS), whether you have perfect ears or you have a great musical education from academia or years of playing.... you need to be aware of and understand........

Reference... Relationships.... and the Developments of the two.

Tonal Centers and Tonal Targets..... can have different References and the possibility of many Relationships.

There can be multiple layers of..... TC's and TT's going on at the same time. The same chords, or Chord Patterns don't just have one possible musical understanding or Reference for what one hears and tries to play.

I do disagree with the basic statement of not being able to Walk and Chew gum at the same time.

Sight Reading, using charts.... and thinking.... are just other skills, technical skills. Like having your technical, (chops) skills together on your instrument. Walking and chewing gum at the same time.

Sorry for posting later on your thread Peter... John is wonderful player/composer, and also Mr effect,,,,Gilad.

You ever check out Emmets Place, Emmet Cohen's vids.

here's link... for simple minor blues, love Vincent's playing

[KingKong]

I still am bemused at this theory vs ear issue and how people are getting so annoyed as to delete their posts about it.

Maybe you need to think about it this way?

An engineer carries out some complex differential equation based calculation to design a moving part for a helicopter.

A mathematician sits at a desk in Oxford university writing papers about maths.

Is the engineer carrying out 'maths theory'? No he's using a set of highly effective and powerful techniques that he's picked up over time and study. Techniques that were worked out by THEORETICIANS.

The engineer is a PRACTICIAN, the mathematician is a THEORETICIAN.

So, when Joe Pass sits down and goes to town, by the same idea, he is a PRACTICIAN. Christian Miller , sat working out counterpoints or whatever it is that you do is a THEORETICIAN.

Come on, read this properly and u cant disagree. anyone.

[mr. beaumont]

I feel like I'm not smart enough to even pick up on who's agreeing and disagreeing in this thread.