The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Typically a 6-2-5-1 turnaround. How much harmonic information do you typically try and throw in there? Since the chord changes are flying by do you even try and outline the changes? Or treat the two measures like an altered dominant chord? All of the above? None of the above?

    Appreciate your comments, experience, strategies, examples etc..

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  3. #2

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    Any cool thing you would do over a ii-V-I sounds awesome there. If it's a slower blues and you have time to think melody, you can treat the VI to ii like a minor turnaround resolving to the ii.

  4. #3

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    Thinking about it a little bit more, I generally treat the last two bars like a 3625... sometimes I treat the whole thing diatonically related to the 1 we're headed back to in the first bar, sometimes I treat all of them like a V7 chord cycle, and sometimes I treat the 3-6 like a ii-V either minor or major depending on the band and what I'm hearing in my head.

  5. #4

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    12 bar blues structure
    folding chord changes

    1 1 1 1
    4 4 5 5
    5 4 1 5

    11 11 11 11
    44 44 11 11
    55 44 14 15

    Above expanded

    [1111 1111 1111 1111] . [1111 1111 1111 1111] . [1111 1111 1111 1111] . [1111 1111 1111 1111]
    [4444 4444 4444 4444] . [4444 4444 4444 4444] . [1111 1111 1111 1111] . [1111 1111 1111 1111]
    [5555 5555 5555 5555] . [4444 4444 4444 4444] . [1111 1111 5555 5555] . [1111 4444 1111 5555]

    Last two bars extended

    1111 4444 1111 5555

    1111 4444 1144 1155

    1111 4444 1144 1415

    The last two bars are from where the folding extends backwards into the progression (see that in the third line bar 11).
    By continuing the process, the folding in the last bar has to come to a practical stop, but by then the movement of the supporting folds have usually moved backwards into the earlier parts of the structure (so the overall folding throughout the structure is smoother). The practical end of folding in the last bar, typical replacements like 1 6 2 5 or double time 1 7 6 b3 2 b6 5 b2 1 come up... parts of which may then also work their way backwards earlier into the progression.

    Simple blues allows for soloing that sounds like it is playing the changes while soloing the same small set of pitches. Each chord change creates excitement at this, and the folding (faster changes of chords or just implied faster changes) increases the excitement and tension - this is why the last two bars often tend to be "the cool part" of the soloing. Even when the series of fancy chords are substituted at the end, the simple set of solo pitches works, allowing for just focus on expression and feel. And of course those who really play these fancy changes are gifted with a wonderful context within which to really press their limits.

  6. #5

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    My strategies for fast chord changes:

    1. Take a drink

    2. Sign autographs...even if nobody wants them

    3. Hit that long lunar note...and let it float!

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Birdsnake
    Thinking about it a little bit more, I generally treat the last two bars like a 3625... sometimes I treat the whole thing diatonically related to the 1 we're headed back to in the first bar, sometimes I treat all of them like a V7 chord cycle, and sometimes I treat the 3-6 like a ii-V either minor or major depending on the band and what I'm hearing in my head.
    I also typically end with a 3\6(dom7), 2\5 but I do this way too often, so I'm trying other 4 chord vamp endings. E.g. I-13, 6-dom7#9, 2-13, 5-dom7#9. For a song in G that would be: G13, E7#9, A-13, D7#9. This vamp provides a lot of opportunities for the soloist.

  8. #7

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    You can do whatever you want. Seeing your phrasing thru is more important than hitting the changes all the time. Although you want to hit the changes some of the time for it to sound like a jazz bluez. What my teacher usually does is play a 3-6-2-5 in the left hand and then play blues language in the right hand. Other options would be outlining the arps or the dominant chords or leave space. Listen to stuff to get ideas of how you'd want to approach it.

    Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 02-02-2023 at 04:50 AM.

  9. #8

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    This is one of those questions that has so many answers. When it comes to what to play or how to approach a turnaround, this is where you earn the right to know the answer by making up your own rules.
    Practice as many options as you want. Listen to as many sources of inspiration as you want (there are so many out there). Play a lot of unsatisfying phrases. Become frustrated or bored. The more you do this, the better the chances you'll find yourself and you will be your best teacher. This is what it's all about. That's how you get it. That's how you own it.
    Patience and persistence.

    Or you can find some video on YouTube if you want to cheat yourself.
    All good options.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by alltunes
    Typically a 6-2-5-1 turnaround. How much harmonic information do you typically try and throw in there? Since the chord changes are flying by do you even try and outline the changes? Or treat the two measures like an altered dominant chord? All of the above? None of the above?

    Appreciate your comments, experience, strategies, examples etc..
    Usually I don’t bother with 6. In fact quite often I just pedal V and leave it at that. Maybe a Tadd Dameron if I’m feeling cheeky.

    If you sub bIIIm7 for VI7 in blues in general (including bar 8) it sounds very bop.

    I also like bIImaj7#11 for the last bar, but I don’t often play that in a blues.

    My experience is the best way to get an idea of what people get up to is to check out some solos.

    Turnarounds at the end of tunes offer a space for ‘doing your own thing’

  11. #10

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    One of the things I sometimes do is something akin to the Ornithology melody ending. (the one goes ascending III- , descending bIII7, ascending II-, descending bII7, different Ornithology recordings have different melody endings).
    But I do variations. change note order and rhythm etc.

    But that's just one trick.

  12. #11

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    C#m7#5 Cm7add13 Bm7 Bbmaj7 (or Bb7, 13 etc.) A of some kind

    G9 Gb#9 F7 E7sus to A of some kind

    in both cases I'm pedaling an A note on top


  13. #12

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    Just play the blues scale over it. There's virtually no blues turnaround variation it won't cover.

    (The t/a isn't really worth the agro. What you do before that is far more important).

  14. #13

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    My answer to questions like these (and I am NOT knocking your question) is: “play whatever you are hearing at the time.”

    You are jamming or on a bandstand in the midst 2 or 4 bars of a tune; you can either [A] remind yourself of a strategy, scale, rote turnaround, whatever and try to call it up for your fingers as the beats fly by, or [B] just accept whatever musical idea pops in your head and play that idea by ear. My problem with solution [A] is that by the time you are done cogitating, the 2 or 4 bars have almost past. You really have no choice, when riding the bucking bronco of a tune, but to come up with musical ideas and play them by ear. (At least that’s the goal I have been pursuing.)

    To rely on authority, I once asked Jim Hall a similar question and he strongly recommended option B.

  15. #14

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    For people like Jim Hall it's probably very easy, their unconscious knowledge and experience of music and takes over and their fingers 'just do it'. For those less experienced it's not going to work because the experience isn't there, they'll either freeze or it'll sound awful and without any real connection.

    Without pushing what I was saying before, that's why I suggested using the blues scale; almost anything is going to work. Don't forget altunes asked this:

    Since the chord changes are flying by do you even try and outline the changes?
    Answer, of course not, just play a simple blues line. In any case, very few blues t/arounds use a vanilla 6251. Standards and ballads, yes, but blues tunes are more likely to use dominants, 7#9's, descending 13ths, tritone subs, and so on. Which is why the blues sound works.

    And I hope alltunes is still around, he hasn't posted since he started this thread.

  16. #15

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    In my opinion, at practice time you can be very deliberative and think technical thoughts about particular scales, II-V-Is etc. But when playing a tune, at any level, you have to get better and better at having ideas and playing them by ear. It’s painful I know. I’ve been practicing for 50 years and struggled along the way but I think the goal of jazz == have musical ideas and play them by ear rather than plug in pre-practiced licks.

  17. #16

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    I didn't say pre-practiced, quite the contrary. There's nothing creative about plugging in pre-practiced licks. I've said that myself a thousand times here (and got told learning licks is a terrific idea!).

    But the blues pent/scale is different. It's diverse enough to almost invent a new one each time you play it, and that's the point. You can fit it to the tune you're playing. Don't forget, we're only talking the turnaround, the last two bars of the tune. There, who's counting? Its only purpose is to round off what you've played so far and provide continuity to the next chorus. That's why I'm saying it's the main body of the tune that matters, not the turnaround. That matters too, but much less than the tune as a whole.
    Last edited by ragman1; 02-03-2023 at 11:28 PM. Reason: careless grammatical error

  18. #17

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    George Benson - I think there is a video of him discussing his lines and being asked what he did. Upon analysis he takes paths from start to destination that don't necessarily follow the changes. It could be the blues scale or other vocabulary. I got the sense that while he can analyze what he played, it's not something he is practiced at. Some of them seem pretty out there when analyzed but never-the-less sound great.

  19. #18
    Thanks for all the thoughts and ideas. I was not clear enough in my question I believe.


    First I start by the premise that is OK to work on composing some lines that work over a set of changes. That is composing no? Whether one can pull off your ideas later in the heat of battle is a different story but the preparation would be helpful.

    Given the above would you try and map out a line that resolves 7ths down to 3rds in those two measure for example? Or is that level of detail not worth it? I suppose I’m asking if practically any of you ever try and compose lines that weave through these 2 measures in such a manner.

    I guess that brings up a broader question…..do any of you try an compose lines over changes to standards and write those ideas down?

    p.s. I get that the last two measures of a blues is an opportunity to play just about anything that sounds good.
    Last edited by alltunes; 02-04-2023 at 09:26 AM.

  20. #19

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    Nothing wrong with composing ideas beforehand, but in my experience, trying to remember them and reproduce them in the heat of battle goes wrong for me (I can’t think about past explorations and play to a moving beat at the same time). But composing lines beforehand gives you a good idea of how tonal melodies work. I think strong melodies spell out chord changes (think JS Bach or C. Parker). So whether you do 7th to 3rds or some other method, write out melodies for sure. It’ll teach you a lot. (Then play them by ear in as many keys as you can stand.) But it may not be practical to call them up from memory while taking a solo. At that point hopefully you’ll create on the spot. (No problem adding some space (silence) too.

    Here’s a favorite turnaround in C: [C Eb7 | Ab7 G7].

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    George Benson - I think there is a video of him discussing his lines and being asked what he did. Upon analysis he takes paths from start to destination that don't necessarily follow the changes. It could be the blues scale or other vocabulary. I got the sense that while he can analyze what he played, it's not something he is practiced at. Some of them seem pretty out there when analyzed but never-the-less sound great.
    Breezin' came on my Pandora feed this morning. Benson plays a lot of blues over the out vamp, occasionally outlining the changes, mostly not. May not be "correct" but it sure feels "right."