The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    When fep, a distinguished forum member, lead the Bill Elliot Improvisation group a few years ago, I remember reading in the book how the author had some method of knowing which chord or scale interval he was on with a given finger. The author did not go into much, but he alluded to some sort of note interval organization based on where he placed a particular finger.

    I was looking through a Richie Zellon course book on fingerings and he has a system that he uses to organize any scale, arpeggio, or mode. I won't give away his intellectual information here, but I find it curious that no one ever seemed to have discussed that part of his course in the Zellon thread (or I missed it). After years of trying off and on to memorize and internalize intervals in a given fingering, I am starting to see the genius in his system and as a more mature player, it is sinking in my thick skull now.

    So for those of you who can improvise rather freely, do you have an actual fingering system that helps you know your position and the interval you might by playing? For instance, many used the CAGED system based on the 6 open chord shapes. I assume they imagine the chord and then navigate the notes using the chord voicing for that position as a guide. Thanks for any feedback.
    Last edited by AlsoRan; 12-04-2022 at 09:00 PM.

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  3. #2

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    No formal 'system' whatsoever, but here are a few things I think about that help me stay organized:


    1. Play in a lot of keys and get a sense for how each key maps to the fretboard. I'd aim to be able to look at any fretted note and know what scale degree it is in any key. For example, if I play the 7th fret on the D string, I know several things immediately:
      1. It is scale degree 6 of C
      2. Scale degree 7 of Bb
      3. Scale degree 3 of F, b2 of Ab, #4 of Db, etc. --- that all comes from playing hundreds of tunes in each key and analyzing melodies.

    2. Play 2 octave major and minor scales in as many different ways as you can come up with. This helps contextualize the above and put a fingering to it. Taking the above example, assuming C major:
      1. If pinky, I can play a whole step up with my pointer finger on the next string, then C with middle finger - this being part of a broader pattern that I've probably learned or explored at some point in time.
      2. If middle, well i can play next whole step with pinky on same string and I know i have a stretch to get to C on the next string. Thats actually great because it opens up the possibility to let the notes bleed across a half step which can be a nice sound in appropriate context
      3. If ring, here I'm in perhaps a nice major pentatonic shape, or I stretch to next string with pointer to get the 7th degree
      4. If pointer, now maybe I'm in the classic 2 octave major scale shape that starts on the 6th string

    3. Figure out how to play a bunch of charlie parker tunes and pay attention to analysis, note names, functions, and scale degrees. Then change up fingerings. I mean you could do this with any standard tune, but the bebop stuff has idioms embedded in it that you really need to know
    4. Play arpeggiated 7th chords in sequence within those 2 octave major scale shapes. Start to categorize these into tonic, subdominant, and dominant, and begin playing around and elongating those functional areas.
    5. Keep playing, improvising, experimenting until you get really familiar with the possibilities.


    I think this approach probably takes longer to start sounding "good" but you're creating a very flexible chassis for development down the road, and you'll be able to move around REALLY freely.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan

    So for those of you who can improvise rather freely, do you have an actual fingering system that helps you know your position and the interval you might by playing?
    Absolutely not. You've got the cart before the horse. If I know the position then I can play it. Position first, fingering follows naturally.

    As for intervals, it's not the sort of thing I worry about. I listen and if it's good, it's good.

    I don't know who's teaching you, or if you're just trying to do it yourself, but someone's leading you up the path. When you shave, brush your teeth or comb your hair, do you think 'Which hand position do I use'? You just do it naturally. Same thing here.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by RunningBeagle
    how to play a bunch of charlie parker tunes.
    If he's playing Charlie Parker tunes he'd be advanced enough to have sorted out something as basic as fingering a long time ago!

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    When fep, a distinguished forum member, lead the Bill Elliot Improvisation group a few years ago, I remember reading in the book how the author had some method of knowing which chord or scale interval he was on with a given finger. The author did not go into much, but he alluded to some sort of note interval organization based on where he placed a particular finger.

    I was looking through a Richie Zellon course book on fingerings and he has a system that he uses to organize any scale, arpeggio, or mode. I won't give away his intellectual information here, but I find it curious that no one ever seemed to have discussed that part of his course in the Zellon thread (or I missed it). After years of trying off and on to memorize and internalize intervals in a given fingering, I am starting to see the genius in his system and as a more mature player, it is sinking in my thick skull now.

    So for those of you who can improvise rather freely, do you have an actual fingering system that helps you know your position and the interval you might by playing? For instance, many used the CAGED system based on the 6 open chord shapes. I assume they imagine the chord and then navigate the notes using the chord voicing for that position as a guide. Thanks for any feedback.
    I try to keep fingering and where the notes are on the fretboard separate in my mind

    i recommend practicing scales with one finger and/or along one string, as well as scales that encompass the full range of the instrument with various intervals and as many different pathways as possible.

    I also like one octave scale shapes as these are more versatile than traditional positions. This comes out of Barry harris somewhat

    Other than that, the more positional approaches you know, the better. Once you have it, practice something else. It’s about flexibility.

  7. #6

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    I learned CAGED before I knew it was called that. I’m not consciously using it when I play BUT it is easier to hit the notes I want if I spend 5 minutes running them as a warm up.

  8. #7

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    In case I'm misunderstood, I'm not in any way suggesting one should be vague or random, or just leave things to chance. Say I want to run up a dom7 arpeggio, I have to know what those notes are. But the fingering should come naturally, it should be simple and easy to play. Obviously one would go over it a few times to figure it out.

    The point is that different people will find some fingerings easier than others. If a book or teacher lays down a set fingering for something (which they often do) it may not suit everybody. But learners being unsure, they'll be tempted to struggle with something they find unnatural to them. Which, to my mind, is dangerous.

    So, as before, I insist that the position or shape or pattern comes first and then the fingering, not the other way round. First sort out the notes and then use whatever fingering seems right to you. Never force yourself into a pattern that doesn't feel right, it'll only set you back. Whereas if you discover you can play something easily, and which is effective, then you'll have found something and have the confidence to progress.

  9. #8

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    for me learning triad chord inversions in close and open forms was is a gift that keeps on giving..knowing which finger is on what note of the chord..extend this into chord pairs- mix and match inversions

    learning the I VI V forms in all inversions and positions opened many voice leading possibilities

    knowing scales in all positions and keys and as many as possible melodic patterns and scale fragments within those positions and keys

    and of course finding ways to incorporate this into song structures and improvisation settings

  10. #9

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    There might be something to say for really mastering one or two fingerings that you can apply quickly to new tunes versus getting stuck in the weeds trying to master the entire fretboard with every possible fingering and position. The goal is to make music. Different skill levels, different goals, varying amounts of practice time, etc. If you can’t play something hip in one fingering, can you play something hip in 40 different fingerings? I’ve been working with a teacher on internalizing phrases from transcription, and we are working from basically fifth and sixth string root positions. I’m happy with the progress I am making and no longer feel any stress to be able to play in every single position. That may come with time, but cart before the horse.

  11. #10

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    I separate mechanics (fingering and picking) from "where the notes are" (mind's ear).

    Since our innate response time for initiating a deliberate conscious action is about a quarter second, when we are playing more than four notes per second (eighths at 120bpm), control must pass to processes not at the strictly conscious level. This means that the actual mechanics of fingering and picking must develop largely unto themselves, which is good; it means we may apply very simple rules to the hands and let them (well, the cerebellum contributing coordination, precision, accurate timing, fine-tuning motor movement, motor learning) sort out the invisible details themselves, which is exactly what they are designed to excel at in all the other ways we use them.

    I have two rules, one for each hand:
    Left hand - use four fingers, no exceptions
    Right hand - do what the left hand requires

    My only left hand fingering rule is to use all four fingers, all the time, everywhere on the neck, for all forms and styles of music, no exceptions. As far as the particulars, it's up to the left hand to figure it out while strictly adhering to the one rule. Since there are many ways to finger a line, my hand selects a solution based on lots of factors that I don't need to think about.
    To be clear, my request of the left hand to play a line is not in the form of a series of named notes, intervals, or other theory structures; it is in the form of the sound I want to hear (aural) coming out from the instrument, and the left hand decides a solution among the possibilities using the one rule and context (present location, coming from where, go to where, etc.).

    My only right hand picking rule is do what's required of the left hand solution. This is really simplicity itself in that I do not "talk" to the right hand, only the left; the right hand is just on its own. The left hand solution for playing a line converts the aural request into a sequence of rhythmic pitches as an execution schema. That schema is a timing stream of string and fret coordinates and so it already contains the information for the right hand... which string to pick (or change to), and which not to pick for a slur or pull or hammer... In order for the left hand to execute, it needs to provide part of its plan to the right hand. Fortunately, the information the right hand needs is a subset of the information in the left hand execution schema - the right hand just removes or suppresses the fret coordinate from the schema, just needing to know the strings to be picked, timing, and the movements from string to string.

    This is a very simple and clear method, the whole process like clockwork, feeling natural, instantaneous, and effortless., simply requesting the left hand to make the sound I wish to hear, letting it solve the mechanics of doing that and passing the solution schema requirements to the right hand. The aural sound I request to hear is free of ambiguities of enharmonic naming across keys, no vagaries or hesitancy of comprehension of intervals, and never uses constructions of what I do not want to get to what I do want.

    If I used music theory to play... if I were to play a certain note by thinking a note name, would I just arbitrarily call it by one of its enharmonic names without concern or would I name it correctly based on the key?
    If I were to play the note by thinking an interval name, would I just call it one of its enharmonic interval names, or would I want to be sure of the correct letter name of the note in the key so that the interval was correctly named (major third vs diminished fourth) by complying with the diatonic convention of using all seven note letter names, each only once, using the accidentals applied by the key signature to do so?
    If I were using the major scale as the basis from which scales and chords are derived by applying modifications (semitone raising or lowering of some degrees for scales, stacking thirds or fourths for chords), do I concern myself with correct application of the accidentals with respect to the key (to name the notes properly) and am I really supposed to imagine considering or even hearing something I am not wanting to hear or play (the major scale) in order to perform manipulations that result in producing something I do want to hear and play (mixolydian, augmented, etc.)?

    If I were to play by theory, I might be able to execute maybe one note every few seconds, with many comprehension errors due to construction latency, hesitancy and second guessing on correct naming of pitches and intervals,, and confusion from utilizing harmonic objects I didn't want to hear or play to generate things I did want to hear and play. I have the suspicion that when people say they "use theory to play", it must not be the canonical music theory, but some kind of "reduced instruction set ersatz theory"... something very much faster??!!

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Left hand - use four fingers, no exceptions
    I think it would be almost impossible to play jazz, and probably most other styles, without using four fingers. Some styles use the thumb as well. But that's not the point.

    The point is how they're used. Joe Pass, for example, was a spider-crawler, four fingers horizontally across the neck. Wes, on the other hand, was primarily a 1 and 3 man with the occasional pinky when necessary, like a blues player.

    It's not a question of which is best, it's about which is the right fit for the player.

  13. #12

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    I don't have an organized system that I could explain, say, to a student, except this.

    I know the notes in the scales I use (major, minor and melodic minor and I can hear harmonic minor pretty well). I know them in 12 keys. Similarly, I know the notes in the vast majority of the chords I use, again, in 12 keys. I also know every note on the fingerboard, instantly, without thought. I know 7th chord arpeggios in 5 positions in 12 keys. So, if I have time and choose to think about any of this stuff, I can find the notes I want.

    I learned scales, Chuck Wayne style and Warren Nunes style (different fingerings entirely) but I don't use either. I found fingerings that were comfortable for my hands and picking ability.

    The idea is to know the chord of the moment and the tonal center (if any). Say you're in Cmajor tonal center and the chord is Dm7, you envision (what's the auditory correllary?) D F A C in the foreground and the rest of the white keys in the background. There are 5 notes left over and you think of them as spice.

    I think Jimmy Bruno also taught the advantage of getting the intervals on a corresponding finger, but I could never make sense of it. That's not a criticism of Jimmy's teaching -- apparently, it went over my head. Or, I didn't need it because I already knew the notes. I can get the note I want by sound. If I think about it I can name the interval, but I never pick anything by thinking about intervals.

    Doing it this way eliminates learning patterns. I was never good at that which is probably why I do it the way I just described. If you know the notes you want and where they are, you can start anything on any fret/finger/string. One is as good as another.

    But, Paul makes an excellent point about the time the brain requires to select a note. I'm not a fast player at all, but I can play a good deal faster than eighths at 120bpm. I can't explain it. I hear the chord and my fingers go to the right place a good percentage of the time. Not 100%.

    Whichever way you do it, eventually I think you get (or try to get) to the same place. You imagine a line and your fingers play it without any further interference from the likes of you.

    And, in a way, that is, from a certain point of view, it doesn't matter much how you do it. Getting this stuff together is, I think, the easy part. Getting your melodic sense, your harmonic ears and above all your time-feel all working together -- that's what makes a jazz player.

  14. #13

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    Great stuff, everyone. I am processing the different points of view. Coming from an electrical/electronics background, I always liked to memorize and get a decent mental picture of the entire wiring diagram or schematic.

    When I was young, the images would pop up in my head, like a pesky mosquito flitting onto a white scrap of paper. Now, not so much but I still think in diagrams and schematics.

    These fingerings are allowing me to first target the root, and then I am beginning to learn where the ninths, flat fives, and whatever, are in relation to that root notes location. The bonus is that I am starting to be able to pick up several different arpeggios, scales, etc, in one position. If I want to jump from F to Bb, I just first locate the root and apply the corresponding shape. The shapes are used over and over, depending on the root and location. No matter what mode or scale I am using, that root note is my marker, almost like a compass. It is helping me to remember lines, too and seems to be the way to overcome my lack of time and ability to recollect.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    Great stuff, everyone. I am processing the different points of view. Coming from an electrical/electronics background, I always liked to memorize and get a decent mental picture of the entire wiring diagram or schematic.

    When I was young, the images would pop up in my head, like a pesky mosquito flitting onto a white scrap of paper. Now, not so much but I still think in diagrams and schematics.

    These fingerings are allowing me to first target the root, and then I am beginning to learn where the ninths, flat fives, and whatever, are in relation to that root notes location. The bonus is that I am starting to be able to pick up several different arpeggios, scales, etc, in one position. If I want to jump from F to Bb, I just first locate the root and apply the corresponding shape. The shapes are used over and over, depending on the root and location. No matter what mode or scale I am using, that root note is my marker, almost like a compass. It is helping me to remember lines, too and seems to be the way to overcome my lack of time and ability to recollect.
    Knowing the location of tonics of scales and roots of chords certainly provides the foundation for everything. If you like the schematic approach, here is a way of finding and relating them with respect to position fingerings. This idea is introduced as a memorized schema, but with use it becomes internalized as shapes of information.

    There are a few different versions of the fingering position system; five positions per 12 fret octave, seven positions, and more. Those more numerous overlapping positions within a 12 fret span are intended to support various fingering methods, but for the relating of tonics/roots, five fingering positions is ideal.

    Each of the five fingering positions is identified by a numeric code that indicates a set of octaves serving as tonics/roots. It is assumed that you are familiar with the fingering position, so all the code indicates is the strings on with the octaves are located. I will go through a linear example up the neck, but realize that all of the position fingerings may be anywhere depending on the particular circumstances. The codes' purpose is for identification of tonics/roots when you find yourself in a particular fingering position pattern. I will show the codes for "E", but once you see it you will be able to do it for anything, then may try it internally without the codes.

    Starting at the nut, the fingering position for "E" is called 641. You probably get it already - it means the sixth, fourth, and first strings are the ones where there is an E within the local fingering. You can play any E chord or scale and see that E is being played on the 641 string set. This is the fingering orientation where the tonic/root in on the 6th string (open string in this example).

    When you reference this fingering pattern at the fifth fret to play an A chord or scale rooted on the sixth string, the tonic/root of A will still be on the 641 string set. You may notice this fingering position is associated like the "E" form of the CAGED system, except it avoids the misnaming of calling or thinking it "E" when it is really A or Ab, etc. It also does not try to impose the "baggage" of CAGED's major chord scale degrees and intervals against the jazz scale or chord you are playing. It only identifies the tonics/roots, which are the only constants across all the different types of scales and chords.

    Next position you find E on the fourth string (same E as before) and another on the second string at the fifth fret. The code for that fingering position is 42.

    Next one at the fifth fret is 52.
    Next is 53.
    Next is 631.
    Next is 641 like the first one.

    641
    42
    52
    53
    631
    641

    Notice each has a common string numeral with the previous, two common strings between the three digit ones.

    This system is for insight. Once you notice the ease of knowing the tonics/roots of scales and chords just based on the fingering position patterns, you've internalized it and it may be forgotten.

  16. #15

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    I learned to improvise on diatonic suff by ear. Can't say it's the best ever method but free enough. Never bothered to think about fingerings.
    But this freedom meant that when trying to "help" the quality of the impro with anything else... at all.. the automation stopped and the flow got stuck.

    Now learning altered dominants. First tried a bit the same method - just react by ear. Nah.
    Doesn't seem to work at all. Fingerings, patterns, degrees - all of that needs a lot of attention.

  17. #16

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    Cant say I have any particular fingering technique, just use whatever is available at the time. Seem to have developed a bit of agility and dexterity to bend and clump them about a bit to get myself out of problems!

    As for finding notes....

    -- am always aware of which of the CAGED positions I am in at any given time.
    -- so its done kind of intuitively I guess by route of lots of practice..... some positions are a lot more fluid than others, those that have been played in more.

  18. #17

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    I like the way you named the shape with two number and thee numbers. It immediately creates an octave image in my mind to fill in.

    Also, its impressive to see so many of you have really internalized the fretboard, such that you just know where you are. Kind of like when I am driving in my neighborhood. I can go anywhere without really thinking of anything other than my destination. That won't happen for me anytime soon on the guitar, but that's OK.

  19. #18

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    Oh another thing, I tend to avoid bars,so e.g. if ur plaing some arpeggio where if it were a chord you would use a bar across one or more strings, if playing single notes I'll use individual fingers instead of a bar. That seems to give the hand more freedom.

  20. #19

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    Learning these fingerings sounds like it will be an important step forward for you. Below I describe an additional approach that has proven helpful to me.

    Intervals and their associated fingerings combined with scale and chordal formulas can be an important building block for knowing where these things can be found on a guitar.

    For example, if you are clear about how to play major and minor 2nds on the same string and on adjacent strings you can freely craft fingerings moving in any direction for major, melodic minor, diminished, whole tone and chromatic scales.

    If you then add major and minor 3rd fingerings, this gives access to many arpeggio fingerings. For example 135, 1b35, 1b3b5, 13#5, 1357, 135b7, 1b357, 1b35b7,1b3b5b7, 1b3b5bb7, 13#57, etc.

    m3rds along with 2nds also add to the scale collection harmonic minor, harmonic major, pentatonic, blues scales, augmented scales.

    Combining 3rds with 2nds and adding P4ths and #4/b5 pretty much covers any possible sequential chord arpeggio.

    One helpful interval tracker on guitar is knowing the intervals of notes on the same fret.

    EA, AD, DG, BE - P4 .......... GB -ma3

    ED, AG - b7 ................ DB, GE - ma6

    EG - m10th ................ AB, DE - ma9

    EB, AE - 12th (P5 up an 8ve)

    EE - two octaves

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Absolutely not. You've got the cart before the horse. If I know the position then I can play it. Position first, fingering follows naturally.

    As for intervals, it's not the sort of thing I worry about. I listen and if it's good, it's good.

    I don't know who's teaching you, or if you're just trying to do it yourself, but someone's leading you up the path. When you shave, brush your teeth or comb your hair, do you think 'Which hand position do I use'? You just do it naturally. Same thing here.
    I think there's some confusion with the term "fingering system".

    The heptatonic system that Zellon advocates is a system for organizing the fretboard. This doesn't necessarily imply a specific fingering. Any of the 7 seven patterns will 'suggest' one or more fingerings when playing a scale or arpeggio, but when it comes to running lines, the system doesn't dictate any specific fingering. That's left as an exercise for the player. In fact in his "bebop calisthenics" there are multiple ways to finger a given line, and he recommends becoming familiar with all of the variations.

    As I mentioned in another thread, as someone coming to guitar with a deep knowledge of the keyboard, where there's only 1 place to play middle C (as opposed to 5 on the guitar), having a system to organize all of the notes has been incredibly useful and helped me more quickly apply to the guitar all of the knowledge I learned from decades of playing piano.

  22. #21

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    Well, as I said, what is right for the player.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maroonblazer
    As I mentioned in another thread, as someone coming to guitar with a deep knowledge of the keyboard, where there's only 1 place to play middle C (as opposed to 5 on the guitar), having a system to organize all of the notes has been incredibly useful and helped me more quickly apply to the guitar all of the knowledge I learned from decades of playing piano.
    Oh ! I didn't know the process how I learnt the neck.
    Thanks ! Because of fingerings and positions, I had been stuck on the guitar for decades.
    I stopped playing the guitar at work and began playing the piano instead but I didn't play melodies.
    Then I bought a melodica and began playing melodies (I really wanted to play the accordion).
    When I played the guitar again, I didn't think the same way.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maroonblazer
    I think there's some confusion with the term "fingering system".

    The heptatonic system that Zellon advocates is a system for organizing the fretboard. This doesn't necessarily imply a specific fingering. Any of the 7 seven patterns will 'suggest' one or more fingerings when playing a scale or arpeggio, but when it comes to running lines, the system doesn't dictate any specific fingering. That's left as an exercise for the player. In fact in his "bebop calisthenics" there are multiple ways to finger a given line, and he recommends becoming familiar with all of the variations.

    As I mentioned in another thread, as someone coming to guitar with a deep knowledge of the keyboard, where there's only 1 place to play middle C (as opposed to 5 on the guitar), having a system to organize all of the notes has been incredibly useful and helped me more quickly apply to the guitar all of the knowledge I learned from decades of playing piano.
    Well put. I was more concerned with the shapes, but the fingering is important in his system to choose the right one. If I start with my index finger on the root as opposed to my pinky, there will be different frets available, so this choice is important. From there, you just finger the notes in the most comfortable way.
    Now, if I start a Mixolydian Scale on a certain string, in my head I can see where the various intervals are. I also am learning where I can jump from one chord tone to a chord tone in the next chord. It has been amazing so far.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Well, as I said, what is right for the player.
    I may be barking up the wrong tree, Raggy, but so far so good. It is helping to connect all the ideas I do know, and integrate additional ones. So far.....

  26. #25

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    I was shocked to find out how classical players do fingering, they don't move their hand up the neck and to transpose something you would use different fingers keeping your hand in the same position.How restrictive and completely the opposite to rock / jazz playing is that?!