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I've always had this suspicion when listening to the Greats that many were changing their "bag" from year to year. For example, listen to Rollins or Coltrane from say 1957, and compare that to how they were playing in 1960 or '61. Pretty different (well, I think so anyway). Not true of all players, I know, but some players (for all instruments) really seem to work up a temporary storage bag of tricks to be at their fingertips for a limited period, before they perhaps get bored, and then replace their older devices/ideas/lines etc for some new ones.
Maybe if you asked Sonny Rollins or Bill Evans in 1970 to play like they used to in 1960, they couldn't do it even if they tried. Speaking personally, I know I seem to prefer certain periods more than others when listening to some players over their career. Unfortunately, there often seems to be a sweet spot (at least to me) for a few years, then they change their bag for whatever reason and never sound the same as they once did. Progress is always important for the player (I know I get bored if I don't change stuff every year), but maybe the listener doesn't always appreciate stylistic changes in players they once loved?
But to get back to my main point, perhaps in the form of a question, if you change what's in your bag every coupla years or so, does your new stuff push out the old? And do you wish you could hang on to the old material as well as the new?
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11-26-2022 03:48 AM
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Everything lags by at least six months
apply everything to tunes right away
As I get better my ability to improvise with elements - my flexibility - improves. I can play things I haven’t practiced sometimes which is nice.
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The beginnings of arthritis and neuralgia have made it futile to use speed as a technique, aside from an occasional sweep. So, to generate momentum I started using sparsity and space in the first chorus, then adding more notes and longer lines, ending up with rhythmic double stops and chords. I don’t miss speed. Along with that, I gave up on bebop, and have been enjoying hard bop and pre-bebop swing.
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Some players find something that works and they stick to it. You know who they are. Some are ALWAYS and constantly evolving. I think there's a combination of elements that balance to form the person you are when responding to pressure (on the gig). Part of good practice is to open up new possibilities that fit what you want to express, and part of it is to temper those elements so they become so ingrained that they are accessible to you on the bandstand.
Julian Lage told me his practice sessions are always changing but to really integrate new ideas, or to recognize new things, he will practice an entire set as he would play it on stage, no stops, no corrections, lumps and all, as part of the tempering process.
Bill Frisell always seems like he's evolving and changing, folding in new ideas. Once I asked him "When's the last time you came upon an idea that fundamentally changed the way you see and play the instrument?" and he paused thoughtfully "Gee, I think last week. No, 15 minutes ago. I was walking before and I came on this idea I have to work on when we hang up."
I think it only pushes out the old if the old is ready to fall off the tree. It's not merely a matter of supplanting, but evolving. New ideas are a result of your choices of what you need...to express something that if your own sensibilities. Yeah, there are those who go for change for change sake, or to imitate or try to capture something they saw in someone else. I'm not talking that.
You're who you are and if you have something in your techniques that is true, it doesn't get pushed out. In general, it grows into something that you want or need even more.
One of the most radical changes in technique came about when Mick Goodrick switched from using a pick to strictly fingerstyle. You might not know that he used to be a pick only player. He and John Abercrombie were best friends and roommates early on. They found and inspired a sound that became the linear sound of a generation of players. John went deeper into the pick sound (eventually evolving into being a thumb player interestingly enough), Mick went fingers while he was on the road with Gary Burton.
I asked him if he ever missed the things he could do with a pick that he lost when he went fingers and he said once in a while he thinks of things that would come easier with a pick but the trade off in harmonic articulation far outweighed the legato ideas that pick playing afforded him.
Swallow went from upright with his fingers of course, to electric bass with a pick. THAT's a huge trade off. But it's curious to note that what he did take with him was the sound and feel of the upright. He said people are always telling him he sounds more like an upright player than a lot of upright players.
So it's a matter of what your ear says you need. When you play enough to let it become soup, then all the ingredients work as one. You don't miss what you're not using.
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The more you improve your ears, and practice the act of playing things you haven’t before (which trains your fingers to respond reliably to new brain "directions"), the more that "bag of temporary tricks" turns into accessible vocabulary.
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It's an interesting question and talks to how artists evolve. Of course, there's always bad days in the studio, and non-creative periods going on their lives as well. There is also this subjective element where artists, and listeners like the what they hear one day and hate it the next. Being able to remember everything you knew in your earlier career is not only a huge task, but I'm not sure it would always serve you well. Better to focus on the moment, and what inspires you from your more immediate surroundings. You can always go back and get inspiration from your past, if you feel you need it.
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My ability to retain devices I've spent a lot of time on in the past may not be as good as it could be. It almost seems like I have a limited sized bag, and if I put too many new things in there, some old stuff gets neglected, and then forgotten.
I know some of you are thinking that if stuff gets left behind then it's because one might wish it to be. But that's not the case with me! I sometimes hear an old recording of myself and think "Damn, there's some slick ideas I had going on back then!"
I just can't keep everything I've ever worked on in the bag, but then I can't resist the temptation to work up new things all the time....
Is it a memory thing? Does anyone else relate to what I'm talking about?
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I can relate. I’ve forgotten more songs than I’ll ever know.
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I think JimmyBlueNote's response was spot-on, and I'll embellish (with a nod to princeplanet and AllenAllen) with a dash of "use it or lose it." There are fundamental ideas or concepts that I've been working for years to integrate into my playing - those continue to inform my approach, and they often open doors to other ideas and approaches. Favorite licks based on particular ideas tend to ferment and hit a sweet spot then may go away because mastering the challenge that a particular lick evolved to meet tends to open the door to another idea that I want to express: cresting one hill allows you to see the next one. Transcribed solos that I learned specifically to advance my conception or technique tend to be favorite enough that I review them often enough to avoid forgetting them.
Tops in the "use it or lose it" category today would be reading standard CG-style or piano-score notation. I picked up the Joe Pass chord solos transcription book the other day and discovered that my ability to read that level of notation has degraded. There was a time when I could just read that s--- down and I haven't done that in a while, so getting back at it to refresh that skill.Last edited by starjasmine; 11-26-2022 at 09:34 PM.
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Ditto. Yes, it's a memory thing for sure, and the older you get the smaller the bag gets. On the other hand, recall is a strange thing. What is it that makes you play something on the spur? If you are relying on memory recall alone, does that interfere with the creative process? So, in that sense a smaller bag means easier access and less regurgitation, possibly?
Originally Posted by princeplanet
My ability to retain devices I've spent a lot of time on in the past may not be as good as it could be. It almost seems like I have a limited sized bag, and if I put too many new things in there, some old stuff gets neglected, and then forgotten.
I know some of you are thinking that if stuff gets left behind then it's because one might wish it to be. But that's not the case with me! I sometimes hear an old recording of myself and think "Damn, there's some slick ideas I had going on back then!" I just can't keep everything I've ever worked on in the bag, but then I can't resist the temptation to work up new things all the time....
Is it a memory thing? Does anyone else relate to what I'm talking about?
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It's the excitement of something new vs. something one already got used to. It is a memory thing in the sense that the brain sort of lets go of what it got tired of (too much repetition introduces boredom). The same thing comes to effect when you find exciting parts in your older recordings; by then they are new auditory information versus ingrained motor skills. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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This is very true. As Joe Pass used to say, if you don't remember it, you didn't like it. Originally Posted by Vihar
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Only partially true for me. If I didn't remember it, it's because I was was so busy learning something new at the time, I forgot to go back and re-consolidate the old stuff I thought I still liked... It probably happens with some pros as well, even the greats. Pat Martino radically changed his style from around '72 to '74 (along with the whole Jazz world, he discovered Fusion), although he was able to reconnect with his Bop roots later on, even before the aneurism. Others (like Rollins, Coltrane, etc) not so much. Originally Posted by Victor Saumarez
Maybe you set out to expand, without wanting to necessarily replace. But when you're up to your ass in alligators, sometimes it's hard to remember why you came to drain the swamp in the first place...
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Yea... it's really difficult to keep all technique up. I've always somewhat adapted to the musicians I'm working with.
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