The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    H fellas, which major triads you use the most over a Dm7 for a outside color? for a dominant C7 I like using C, Bb, F, F#, A major triads and even D and Eb sometimes in a bluesy situation but triads over minor7 chords seem tricky for me.

    Cheers.

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  3. #2

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    depending on the function of the Dmin7 chord...

    as a i7...the F triad is built in

    A7#5 implies augmented so A aug..Db Aug..F aug..

    and within the Augmented scale are three minor chords associated with the Major..Ami Dbmi and Fmi

    and you can use them as different scale degrees in the keys where they are found

    ie: Ami in C major / Ami In Fmaj / Ami in Gmaj
    Dbmin/C#min in E major etc
    Fmin in Ab major etc

    there are the scale fragments and melodic patterns..harmonic devices..circle of fifths..symmetric and whole tone scales all these can be jump off points from basic triads..and of course pent scales

    experiment with the harmonized triads found in a related scale that work with Dmi7..same with scales whole step above/below..min3rd above/below..and any interval ..again experiment

    push further...extend the min7 to the 9th..11th 13th and altered forms Mi7b5 Mi7#5 ..and include the inversions of these chords it gives harmonic movement and voice leading ideas

    if you can record your work playing over a backing track of some of the above ideas

    hope this helps

  4. #3

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    bII
    bVI
    VII

    get the most use here.

  5. #4

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    Could you please name the context?

  6. #5

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    Yeah is this a vamp or functional like in a ii V I?

  7. #6
    Oh yeah sorry I forgot to mention that, I was thinking got in a vamp kinda Sowhat cause to me in a II V I situation Im pretty busy with some basic dorian triads and tritone subs like would be Abm and Db7 or even going for a Eb7 Coltrane thing.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    Oh yeah sorry I forgot to mention that, I was thinking got in a vamp kinda Sowhat cause to me in a II V I situation Im pretty busy with some basic dorian triads and tritone subs like would be Abm and Db7 or even going for a Eb7 Coltrane thing.
    you can do anything you like if you resolve.

    Theres some nice ideas for outside ideas in this vid


    one of the simplest ways is to set up some kind of dominant into the minor. So play not on Dm7 but on A7; you then have a million options of things you can use. A7 can be altered in various ways. Tritone, altered, diminished or even mixolydian ideas can sound great!

  9. #8
    Oh I love those guys from Open studio, I have learnt pretty cool stuff from them, specially ideas to play outside, those are pretty advanced concepts to me right now but yeah lets go for it slowly

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    Oh yeah sorry I forgot to mention that, I was thinking got in a vamp kinda Sowhat cause to me in a II V I situation Im pretty busy with some basic dorian triads and tritone subs like would be Abm and Db7 or even going for a Eb7 Coltrane thing.
    This is another situation where just anticipating the next chord a few beats to even bars early can sound extremely hip.

    Also, superimpose ii and V.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    H fellas, which major triads you use the most over a Dm7 for a outside color? for a dominant C7 I like using C, Bb, F, F#, A major triads and even D and Eb sometimes in a bluesy situation but triads over minor7 chords seem tricky for me.

    Cheers.
    Now after re-reading the OP and the replies I understood what you need.

    Isn’t a technique used such (real) modal situations “side-slipping” a halfstep up from time to time into Ebm7? (If I think about it I never really did that myself although I have jammed really a lot myself in funk and reggae situations on one or two chords — but I never wanted to play outside at that times LOL.)

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    Now after re-reading the OP and the replies I understood what you need.

    Isn’t a technique used such (real) modal situations “side-slipping” a halfstep up from time to time into Ebm7? (If I think about it I never really did that myself although I have jammed really a lot myself in funk and reggae situations on one or two chords — but I never wanted to play outside at that times LOL.)
    Hehe you would tend to sound like the ‘oblivious jazz guy’ in that situation I reckon haha. But in its place, sounds great.

    Another good outside thing - use the Messiaen mode 3/7b5-dim scale

    or Miles’s scale - can anyone remember what that is? It’s like a double harmonic minor of some type.

  13. #12
    Im trying to forget about scales for a while and focus on triads but yeah on a vamp Dm7 works fine go to E major scale and F dorian for some cool outside colors and of course use Ab and Bb minor pentatonic for that slipping sound or if you wanna go Joe Diorio full one mode and use C minor pentatonic which would be coming from Bb melodic minor which is the super locrian of the A7 altered chord that you might be thinking of... it could be endless scale rabbit hole.... but I want to forget all that and explore some basic triads cause that forces me to play in a complete different way which seems pretty hard at the moment.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Hehe you would tend to sound like the ‘oblivious jazz guy’ in that situation I reckon haha. But in its place, sounds great.

    Another good outside thing - use the Messiaen mode 3/7b5-dim scale

    or Miles’s scale - can anyone remember what that is? It’s like a double harmonic minor of some type.
    Do not underestimate the reggae guys’ musical understatement. Especially the Birmingham scene of people from “Jam-Dung” was heavily into fusion as you can hear e.g. in the bridge of this great Steel Pulse tune:



    Already many of the early ska end rocksteady musicians had a solid musical education from the Alpha Boys School in Kingston. (I just found out that that school still exists — since 1880.)

    The guitarist who played on the interludes of this one must have known some Wes or GB.



    And here is a nice Tiny Desk Concert I just found from one of Jamaica’s most influencal guitarists who is self-taught:


  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bop Head
    Do not underestimate the reggae guys’ musical understatement. Especially the Birmingham scene of people from “Jam-Dung” was heavily into fusion as you can hear e.g. in the bridge of this great Steel Pulse tune:



    Already many of the early ska end rocksteady musicians had a solid musical education from the Alpha Boys School in Kingston. (I just found out that that school still exists — since 1880.)

    The guitarist who played on the interludes of this one must have known some Wes or GB.



    And here is a nice Tiny Desk Concert I just found from one of Jamaica’s most influencal guitarists who is self-taught:

    Of course.

    The operative word is ‘oblivious.’ Jazz people are often arrogant.

    A good friend who is a jazz pianist worked with Basil Gabbidon in Brum. He learned a lot about that haha.

    And as for the jazz student debasement of funk that produces the abomination known as ‘Berklee Funk’ I will not speak.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    […] A good friend who is a jazz pianist worked with Basil Gabbidon in Brum. He learned a lot about that haha. […]
    Niceness. One less of-a di bombah clot jazz crowd no know de majority of reggae played with straight eight feel! Ras clot!



    (of course there is always that implied African 3 against 2 feel — lots of eighth and quarter note triplets in the hi-hat, in the dub delays, sometimes in the bass line)

    Swung eighths are rather the exception:


  17. #16
    I like Reggae and Ernest a lot but not the topic guys LOL

    What the heck is Berklee Funk?

    So over a Dm7 vamp: F, G, Ab major triads and Fmin, Dbmin and Amin could be a great place to start and then go nuts with augmented A, Db, G, B... well the whole Metheny or Kreisbreg licks I guess. Also D, Eb and E with their own 4ths/sus4 work fine, a bit alien tho.

    Another weird thing sounds cool is small pattern like D F G A up and down in whole steps, Chick and Macoy vibes
    Last edited by Basshead; 09-18-2022 at 03:28 PM.

  18. #17

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    I never got into triad pairs beyond that Freddy Freeloader blues cliché but maybe that’s what you need? (Click on image for link)


  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    So over a Dm7 vamp: F, G, Ab major triads and Fmin, Dbmin and Amin could be a great place to start and then go nuts with augmented A, Db, G, B... well the whole Metheny or Kreisbreg licks I guess.
    there..see how easy that was...

  20. #19

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    A short chapter on triad pairs on p. 28 (actually p.32 in the PDF) of Lefteris Cordis’ Charlie Banacos dissertation.

  21. #20
    Thanks for sharing Bop Head, could you explain what you mean by Freddy Freeloader blues cliché? Miles song?

  22. #21

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    Yes, I was talking about the Miles tune Freddie Freeloader; the accompaniment under the theme on the I and IV chords are the minor triads on the 6th (resp. 13th) and on the 5th of those chords resp. inversions thereof.

    I think the tune is in Bb major so over Bb7 its Gm and Fm.



    But that’s harmonizing the melody in this case with a pair of triads not improvising. And it’s a cliché, e.g. Buddy Guy uses the same thing here:



    (I do not think that Miles invented that, it is just a way to outline a 7/9/13 chord —
    e.g. Gm + Fm = Bb7/9/13)

    Improvising with triad pairs means that you build a hexatonic (six note) scale out of two triads and use that pitch collection for improvising as described in the Banacos dissertation.

    I am a huge pedantic smart-ass LOL but only in things I know something about so maybe someone else can chime in and elaborate more on improvising with triad pairs.

  23. #22
    Thanks for sharing that, Fm and Gm triads sound great on a Bb7 chord, great choice!
    Last edited by Basshead; 09-21-2022 at 10:54 AM.

  24. #23
    Hi again!

    What about augmented triads over a dominant chord such as a C7 vamp?

    Do you the same aug triads if the chord has strong tensions like b9, b5, #9, #5?

  25. #24

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    Regarding your original question I found this video by bassist and Charlie Banacos student Joe Hubbard who explains and demonstrates the concept of superimposing chords and triads. Might be what you are looking for.


  26. #25
    Thanks man, I play a bit of bass and I used to watch Joes channel a lot but Ive missed this one, cheers