The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hi fellas, I feel a bit stuck with the whole triplet swing feel concept, I mean I get it and I know about it since I was 14 yo but I still think it sounds a bit robotic when I try to practice that myself with a metronome and I always remember that video lesson where Metheny talks about it and sings the subdivisions with his mouth trying to explain that it has to end up sounding more even and not like some kinda shuffle... any tips on how to start working on this, maybe with a drum loop would be easier and more accurate? if you guys know some video on YT and some loop that you use to practice this that would be really helpful.

    Cheers.

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  3. #2

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    Can you post some of your playing so I can hear what you're struggling with?

    Sometimes, the biggest problem is TRYING to swing too much. The other is trying to play too many 8th notes over slow/midtempo tunes.

    I like playing with drum loops a lot...if you don't have Drumgenius, get it. My next favorite would be a metronome, least favorite would be the drummer in iReal.

  4. #3
    Thanksmr. beaumont, that app Drumgenius works on desktop? I dont really use smartphones anymore

    I normally use Logic loops or some on YT like this one here.





  5. #4

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    Learn to consistently sing the swing upbeats and then play nice and even.

    DrumGenius is great

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    Thanksmr. beaumont, that app Drumgenius works on desktop? I dont really use smartphones anymore
    […]
    If you are on a PC you could install Android-x86 on a partition of your harddrive or in a virtual machine. For Macs there is a version of Drumgenius anyway as far as I see.

  7. #6
    Yep great, drumgenius is available for mac

    About singing the upbeats... any video tutorial on YT about that? you mean singing or tapping the ¨ands¨? I actually practice with the metronome like that so its only giving me the upbeats and I find it more interesting and groovy than 2 and 4 or only 4, which help too.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    Yep great, drumgenius is available for mac

    About singing the upbeats... any video tutorial on YT about that? you mean singing or tapping the ¨ands¨? I actually practice with the metronome like that so its only giving me the upbeats and I find it more interesting and groovy than 2 and 4 or only 4, which help too.
    Just put on a swinging medium tempo or slower jazz record and sing the ands; you can vocalise the triplet if you need to.

    Avoid up tempo for now. It’s really a nuance or subtle feel above 200 and you certainly can’t sing the triplets - at least I can’t, so wait till you internalise the feeling before trying faster feels.

    I like things like Basie records for this, very tripletty medium swing, so perfect for internalising this

    Metronome is cool, but human feel is important too and records are great for that. Metronome upbeats can make your feel corny if you don’t understand this next step.

    this is the trick. Play straightish and late but lock into the upbeats

    good example, listen to the first phrase of this head


    now be honest - did you feel that first note on the beat or the upbeat? I don’t know about you but can’t help feeling it on the beat sometimes even though I know it’s wrong. You get to the ensemble hits and you reconfigure in your head and realise you’ve put 1 in the wrong place. The phrase actually starts on the 3 and

    It’s kind of like an audible illusion.

    So, great, who cares? There’s quite a few things like this in music. What does this tell us?

    Something really important: this is a medium tempo swing feel and yet Wes plays straight enough that you can mistake the upbeats for the beats.

    This wouldn’t be true if he was swinging the notes in the textbook way - long beats shorter upbeats.

    So don’t consciously dot or ‘swing’ your eighths. If you do this you may not give your upbeats enough weight. Instead focus on making your upbeats equal to the downbeats, maybe even accent them at first. If (and it can take a little while to get used to) you are feeling the upbeat swing, the combination will be to give you that mature, even, laid back swing we all love.

    This works every time I’ve taught it.

    However, you also have to understand that when you accent the beat such as in the first note of those Charleston hits in the Wes tune, you need to be on the beat, not behind. So straight and late is not a cure all, but it really helps. (That’s also why the hits sound out of time and you realise your mistake if you hear the riff starting on the beat.)

    This is a good tune to practice with.

    Maybe experiment with playing with your thumb or downstrokes only, to keep it even. If you play bass maybe use one finger.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-13-2022 at 06:22 PM.

  9. #8

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    I'll add that it's not really a triplet, they're still 8th notes, just not completely straight like a punk bassist. Maybe that's what's throwing you off, thinking it has to be an implied triplet. All you do is make the upbeat slightly shorter than the downbeat and try to make it groove to your taste or a model of what you want to achieve. Everyone plays different feeling 8th notes. It kind of shows the player's style. More swung 8th notes sounds classic while straighter sounds modern. Post a clip of you playing a scale up and down in swung 8th notes so we know what's going on.

    Wait, also, are you a bassist? The 3 rhythms you want to get down for triplet swing feel on bass are your quarter note, swung 8th note, and triplet.
    Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 09-14-2022 at 04:14 AM.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    I'll add that it's not really a triplet, they're still 8th notes, just not completely straight like a punk bassist. Maybe that's what's throwing you off, thinking it has to be an implied triplet. All you do is make the upbeat slightly shorter than the downbeat and try to make it groove to your taste or a model of what you want to achieve. Everyone plays different feeling 8th notes.
    This is good info, but I would go further than this. Don't try to make any inequality. It will happen naturally. It's certainly not a technical thing because you will straighten out at high tempos anyway which is how it should be. Whenever I tell students who have a bit of a corny swing feel to stop trying to swing, they always swing more. They often don't believe me until I play them a recording because to them it feels straight.

    You have to trust it, if you are feeling it.

    It's true the the nature of the 8th notes vary from player to player - Wynton Kelly, for example, had quite a pronounced inequality and swung like crazy. If you slow down Bird he does actually have quite a pronounced inequality even on fast numbers.

    However, I can't think of a modern jazz guitarist who had as pronounced an inequality as Wynton. My theory is that the mechanics of the guitar actually makes it very hard. Some players are very straight and even - Pat Martino is a great example. Jimmy Raney actually argued that bop should be pretty much straight and the swing comes from the upbeat accents and irregular phrasing IIRC which seems to clash with the way I hear Bird, but I love Raney's playing so clearly it works.

    The trend in general has been towards a more even, late 8th note feel generally in the past few decades. This works for very well for guitar, if you can find the pocket.

    The best advice I had comes from Hal Galper - don't try to swing, instead play even. If you are feeling it, it will come out, but you can't force or fake it. The feeling is in the upbeats (well it's in the downbeats too, its more that for many the upbeats tend to be the things to work on.)

  11. #10
    Great info guys, cheers, I really enjoy listening to music and counting and tapping just the upbeats, I got that from a Hal Galper interview so glad you mentioned his cause it really hit me hard with all his classic YT videos and info about Mike Longo and rhythm in general.
    Pat Metheny said in that audio lesson video on YT that is all about triplet swing feel, not eights notes and no irregular... he said that you have to send up playing those triplets as even as you can in fast tempos but never in a irregular kinda shuffle way...and that there are only 4 guitar players in the world who can do that and most of them are black... what you guys think about that?

    Actually Wes sounds to me a bit more like shuffle that swing sometimes, but I love it and if I can choose, I prefer to have that old Parker, Wynton swing feel that the more modern one, for instance I prefer to listen to Grant Green than to Kurt Rosenwinkel, hope this helps.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    Great info guys, cheers, I really enjoy listening to music and counting and tapping just the upbeats, I got that from a Hal Galper interview so glad you mentioned his cause it really hit me hard with all his classic YT videos and info about Mike Longo and rhythm in general.
    Pat Metheny said in that audio lesson video on YT that is all about triplet swing feel, not eights notes and no irregular... he said that you have to send up playing those triplets as even as you can in fast tempos but never in a irregular kinda shuffle way...and that there are only 4 guitar players in the world who can do that and most of them are black... what you guys think about that?

    Actually Wes sounds to me a bit more like shuffle that swing sometimes
    Listen carefully to the way he articulates. It really doesn't; he's actually pretty even.

    TBH swing, shuffle... it's all the same thing. Shuffle is more like a rhythm section style rather than a specific type of eighth note inequality. I've seen it referred to the latter, but in my opinion that's BS. Swing ride cymbal patterns can be quite straight or really dotted depending on who's playing them, and everywhere in between. Paul Motian was known for being quite dotted for instance, almost old school. There’s no ratio of beat to offbeat eighth that makes swing different from shuffle.

    (Assuming the players are locking into the upbeat amount of dot comes from where the beat is placed, pushed, in the middle or laid back, and the beat itself can be quite a broad and playful concept, but this is above the pay grade for basic eight note swing feel. Compare Paul Chambers feel for the melody and for his walking on So What for a great example of how the beat placement might change between a soloing and comping role.)

    Rather 'shuffle' refers to a specific type of drum pattern that's swung as compared to a jazz ride pattern. Boogie Woogie and blues figures on the guitar or piano intensify the feeling but when it comes down to it, it's all a 6/8 or 12/8 matrix imposed over a 4/4. West African Diaspora Rhythm.

    If you know Mike Longo's materials you know he discusses this a lot obviously and I think he gives good ideas for practicing it, it really helped me with the Djembe and so on. What he calls a 'hidden five' is very close to an African Bembe Bell Pattern. You can hear Wes access this a lot on slow tunes like Willow Weep from Smokin' at the Half Note. It's all on the quartet triplet, which can be locked into the 1 and 3 or 2 and 4; Bembe switches between both. If you want to be hip south of about 160, singing the Bembe clave can help a lot.

    You might also want to check out the thread hereabouts on Brazilian Candomble/Ketu rhythms which derive from West African rhythms and connect to Black American Music. A JGO member (who also happened to be an NY drummer back in the day who worked with Ritchie Hart, Mike Stern and others) did a lot of work on this, and he has some nice YouTube vids. I'll try and track down. Intriguing stuff.

    The history of jazz swing can be found in ketu candomble rhythms

    Strictly for louis armstrong hot five fans : With ketu opanije

    , but I love it and if I can choose, I prefer to have that old Parker, Wynton swing feel that the more modern one, for instance I prefer to listen to Grant Green than to Kurt Rosenwinkel, hope this helps.
    I don't think it really matters that much for getting the basics. which is to say, don’t try to make the swing happen. It will come out as you feel it if you relax and that may be a little dotted or straight depending on how you feel it. The important thing is feel that upbeat pocket. Learn to play solos by the players you love and sing them along with the records before playing them and that helps too.

    You might want to spend some time that Galper exercise where you play a lick, audiate it really loud in your head and then 'toss it off' as if it's no big deal. If you hear it swing you'll play it swing if you relax. That's why singing solos and so on is so important; helps with the ole 'brain signal' and gets you away from the instrument. Lennie Tristano was known for getting students to do this a lot of course.

    As a style thing, older players tended to play more triplets (that is they played at least some triplets haha). The triplet is nice because you place them on the beat and decide very evenly, so you get a push/pull if you lay back with your 8ths normally. Listen to Barry Harris on those old Stitt, Dexter and Lee Morgan things, he was the master of that.

    Also read this article very closely. It's golden.
    https://ethaniverson.com/interview-w...les-mcpherson/
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-14-2022 at 08:24 AM.

  13. #12

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    I agree with Mr Beaumont and others, it sounds like you're making a problem out of it, worrying too much, and all that. It's just a simple rhythmic feel rather than a mechanically straight one, two, three.

    For example, Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star is straight. Happy Birthday isn't. Hey, little kids can sing it! YOU've sung it! That's all you've got to do. Forget the theory, the science, or whatever it is, it's just anxiety-provoking. Just lie back and flow along, no prob, no one's counting :-)



    And don't let them tell you it's not that simple, it is... well, more or less :-)

  14. #13

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    As a great percussionist once told me."There are two types of player. Those who work on their time/feel and those who don't. I know who I'd rather play with."

  15. #14
    Now you are talking motherf.... LOL

    Yeah I think most great players worked on their time feel like crazy, actually some of them were really good drummers like Chick, or played drums like crazy like Brecker, etc...

    The whole African thing is really important to me, after reading Mike Longo book and practice different grooves with my hands and actually I really enjoy practicing with 6/8 loops as well as with samba, bossa and Cuban music loops and it make me swing harder sometimes so the whole thing about 2 and 4 or 1 and 3 is ok for a while but I think its better to feel the grooves in phrases like the clave for instance is a good example, I play a bit of Flamenco and same thing, everything comes from some type of African 6/8 with different accents and groove phrashes that you better internalize pretty deep before you start trying to play anything.

    I think if you have a good drummer or loop behind you and you are able to lock with that groove is great, lets say like it is like basic, specially if you want to survive in studio sessions and stuff but the main goal should be to groove like crazy playing by yourself with no click, loops or anything backing you up, right? or am I going nuts?

  16. #15

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    Basshead...

    You seemed to have suddenly made a quantum leap from this struggling novice person...

    I feel a bit stuck with the whole triplet swing feel concept, I mean I get it and I know about it since I was 14 yo but I still think it sounds a bit robotic when I try to practice that myself with a metronome
    ... to an evidently highly experienced person who practices complex Afro-Cuban rhythms with different accents and groove phrases that you better internalize pretty deep before you start trying to play anything.

    Did this happen overnight or...?

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    I think if you have a good drummer or loop behind you and you are able to lock with that groove is great, lets say like it is like basic, specially if you want to survive in studio sessions and stuff but the main goal should be to groove like crazy playing by yourself with no click, loops or anything backing you up, right? or am I going nuts?
    It's a great goal, but it's HARD...so much of what makes a tune SWING is the push pull between a rhythm section that's swinging hard and a soloist playing relatively even on top of that.

    Playing too much "by yourself" can lead you into the habit of trying to swing too much as well. Balanced practice diet is key.

  18. #17
    LOL nope Ragman, I did not say that, you are manipulating a bit my words, I said that I ENJOY using loops from different styles that make me play or inspire me to try to swing harder and about Flamenco yeah, if you watch a documentary about Paco you would understand whuc he was telling his father ¨you are wrong Daddy¨when he was 7 and before he played one single chord on guitar.

    Sorry im from Spain so my English might be a bit confusing

    I still struggle with the whole triplet vs eights swing thing and the all this crazy jazz education vs the aural tradition debate.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    LOL nope Ragman, I did not say that, you are manipulating a bit my words, I said that I ENJOY using loops from different styles that make me play or inspire me to try to swing harder and about Flamenco yeah, if you watch a documentary about Paco you would understand whuc he was telling his father ¨you are wrong Daddy¨when he was 7 and before he played one single chord on guitar.

    Sorry im from Spain so my English might be a bit confusing

    I still struggle with the whole triplet vs eights swing thing and the all this crazy jazz education vs the aural tradition debate.
    Seriously, don't over-educate it. The answers are on the records, as Christian has said. The more good players you copy, the more this feel will get ingrained...or feels...different players do it differently...Parker playing 8ths vs Dexter Gordon is a very obvious one to hear.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    LOL nope Ragman, I did not say that, you are manipulating a bit my words, I said that I ENJOY using loops from different styles that make me play or inspire me to try to swing harder and about Flamenco yeah, if you watch a documentary about Paco you would understand whuc he was telling his father ¨you are wrong Daddy¨when he was 7 and before he played one single chord on guitar.

    Sorry im from Spain so my English might be a bit confusing

    I still struggle with the whole triplet vs eights swing thing and the all this crazy jazz education vs the aural tradition debate.
    Well, there's nothing wrong with your English, I promise you. If only I could speak Spanish as well!

    I'm not deliberately manipulating, I wouldn't do that. But it did seem as though you were simply having trouble with the basic swing feel.

    All I can say is that if you're trying to play that tricky Latin stuff then, yes, you (or anybody) would have to practice assiduously to get it right, no question about it. Unless they were particularly gifted in some way, and even then.

    Some of those rhythms are extremely demanding and it wouldn't be fair to expect too much of yourself. Not at first, anyway.

  21. #20
    Ok case closed, thanks for the info guys, Ima read some of the material Martin shared and transcribe more from my fav players to try to copy their feel.

    Cheers!

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    transcribe more from my fav players to try to copy their feel.

    Cheers!
    You'll never go wrong doing that.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basshead
    Now you are talking motherf.... LOL

    Yeah I think most great players worked on their time feel like crazy, actually some of them were really good drummers like Chick, or played drums like crazy like Brecker, etc...

    The whole African thing is really important to me, after reading Mike Longo book and practice different grooves with my hands and actually I really enjoy practicing with 6/8 loops as well as with samba, bossa and Cuban music loops and it make me swing harder sometimes so the whole thing about 2 and 4 or 1 and 3 is ok for a while but I think its better to feel the grooves in phrases like the clave for instance is a good example, I play a bit of Flamenco and same thing, everything comes from some type of African 6/8 with different accents and groove phrashes that you better internalize pretty deep before you start trying to play anything.

    I think if you have a good drummer or loop behind you and you are able to lock with that groove is great, lets say like it is like basic, specially if you want to survive in studio sessions and stuff but the main goal should be to groove like crazy playing by yourself with no click, loops or anything backing you up, right? or am I going nuts?
    Yes, of course. You need to hear and feel the rhythms and be able to execute them basically. Then it’s all good.

    Comp for yourself. That’s important training.

    If you comp a Charleston for instance, make sure the 1 is on the beat and the 2+ is consistently placed. Polish basic rhythms until they are perfect before attempting harder ones.

    In terms of soloing, work on set licks and lines until they shine. You don’t want to be practicing improvisation at the same time as you working on your time imo

    Sweat the details. Listen and play with the track (writing things down is much less important.)

    But I do find practicing rhythm exercises help. You practice an exercise and hear it everywhere sort of thing.

  24. #23

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    I'm actually curious what is going on here also. So you can't play 8th notes, or you're doing complex grooves and amassing transcriptions?
    Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 09-14-2022 at 03:05 PM.

  25. #24

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    Apparently it's swing he can't do properly. All these latin rhythms are straight, like Flamenco is straight. But he's Spanish and their music is very straight, rhythmically. If you google Spanish Jazz it's nearly all latin rhythms. I only found one performer who plays swing jazz and he's a lot older and went to Berklee.

    Put it the other way round. Who can really perform, say, Flamenco with the authentic depth of feeling and soul? Or Russian or Jewish music? It's got to be in the blood, in the DNA from childhood.

    Personally, I have the same problem with a certain flavour of modern jazz, which can be quite subtle. I can simulate it but it's not the real thing. But I can hear players like wzpgsr do it almost naturally.

    It's a theory, that's all. I'll be told it's nonsense or racist (!) but I'm not sure. There's still something missing from all this.... I can feel it :-)

  26. #25
    Here is my latest album, check track call Lofiblues, this is not jazz, is electronic music but you can tell how Im rushing, thats one thing I think I have improved a lot in the past few months but Im always interested in be more in control of my time feel to be able to have fun playing funky lines and stuff.
    Last edited by Basshead; 09-14-2022 at 04:37 PM.