Practice approaches wanted...

[mbar65]

Hi,
I've been an avid jazz guitar student through various online means for 5+ years. This is after 35+ years of learning and playing classic rock, blues and a little jazz. I took private lessons in high school and have been at it for a long time. I know my theory and can read but not at pace. I'm proficient with technique, playing, chord theory, scale theory and improv in the rock and blues idioms. I want to continue to improv my improv over jazz standards. You ask me to play lydian dominant in Ab and I can't give it back to you. I know a good many tunes at this point, but I feel that when I just turn myself loose with trying to solo, I have no good ideas that come naturally.

I'm at the point where I am a member of one particular pro player's online offering but it's just videos that come out and it is not structured learning. I've just gotten away from yet another pro player's online offering which was structured, but he was catering to a clientele that was more "beginner" than I am so it was losing it's value for me when only the last few minutes of a 45 minute lesson are most applicable for what I wanted out of it.

I wonder what others of you are either exactly where I am or past this point frankly and can offer some sound advice on the best way to go from here. Lately I've been picking a tune and starting with either playing the melody and chords from memory (hopefully, or re-learning if needed) and then trying to do exercises for chord tone soloing at a slower pace. I wonder if I need to go to some of my many resources for ii-V licks or other phrases to pick a couple and practice them against the particular tune I'm studying and memorize them in context. Is this a good way from here to start building my vocabulary? Because just doing exercises like approach tones and enclosures and chromatics or Barry Harris' rules over dominant chords (blah blah blah) isn't cutting it.

Any advice is welcome.
Mike

[pauln]

...I have no good ideas that come naturally... just doing exercises... isn't cutting it.

My habit is to farm creativity by naturally seeding and cultivating it. When I practice I always continue to play and explore until I discover or figure out something new. Then I play with it to familiarize how it sounds in various tunes' contexts. I can't stress too much how critical it is to do the invention, discovery, figuring out of the new thing oneself (not from a lesson, method book, video, etc., but on one's own).

If you try this, it will get progressively easier because your growing vocabulary/applications of new things are interactive, and ending each practice only after finding a new thing to play with is literally ending on a happy note, reinforcing the creativity development habit.

[fleaaaaaa]

Perhaps try Robert Contis advanced solos? The streaming options are cheap. Your technique will probably be raised too.

Any lines you learn from anywhere should be used in tunes, reworked into your own liking but I personally find that you need to get to know the line then experiment to make it your own or rework for a new situation such as making a major 7th line fit a dominant chord.

Also the jazz lines book by Robert Conti may help you turn some lights on for the function of lines and reusing or reworking lines.

[ModesSchmodes]

Great question Mike, this is something I have been struggling with as well, and continue to struggle on and off again.

It may be tired advice, but what really helped me break out of this "I can't come up with anything good" is basically to transcribe stuff. It may be a whole solo or something short that piques my interest. After working on transcribing a whole solo to a tune I found that, while someone who knows their stuff would call my improvising over this particular tune derivative, I felt much more confident in improvising.
Or as an example, I have been listening to the Gary Burton Quintet's "Common Ground" a lot, and the beginning to Julian Lage's solo on it is so cool that I've transcribed and transposed it, picked it apart, and man, having such a great opening line to a solo has helped me immensely.

So yeah, if you feel stuck and feel like your playing sucks, try playing something someone else has played that you like. Because this "that you like" is so important. If you only play jazz by trying to improvise but what you improvise frustrates you, you'll stay frustrated for a long time.

[Dana]

I've been teaching guitar over 30 years. In my experience the biggest thing holding back intermediate level players are the following:

• Trying to tackle too many things at once. Pick just one or two things and then practice the hell out of them, and nothing else for at least a week.
• Not spending enough time on a topic. Too often I'll show a student something and the very next week they want to work on something completely different. When I ask them if they worked on the previous weeks topic, they give me a sheepish look and say no.

I have students that still have to refer to charts when figuring out drop 2 chords. I tell them if they had just spent a month shedding them they would be second nature by now.

I also suggest making a schedule. Write down 2 or 3 topics you wish to work on, then write Mon, Tues, Wed, etc. Put a check each day you work on a topic. I use a spreadsheet for this. Works great.

I understand that people like online self paced lessons, but in my opinion, nothing beats 1 on 1 lessons with a good teacher.

I would also suggest finding people to jam with, preferably at your level with similar goals in mind (getting better at jazz). That can help a lot.

Good luck.

[Alter]

I would focus at listening to a lot of classic jazz, learning tunes (so melodies and chord progressions), and doing as many transcriptions as possible. Also play with others if you can!

[wolflen]

mbar65...Hi

OK..I understand that "lost" feeling ..when I listen to the masters (Peterson, Miles,Evans etc) play a tune I realize they know it in more than one key
and in several different styles and tempos..yeah they know it "inside out"

now realize these players are committed musicians practice is their breath

for me just knowing the basic tools was not enough .. Allan Holdsworth said (paraphrase) it takes about two years to know a scale ..

I had to think about that .. and a light went off..yeah ..no matter where you are from any ONE note you have the ability to know the possibilities

that come after that note..every melodic pattern..chord and its inversions in every key and position ..how to apply it to diatonic progressions in all keys

and all the alterations of chords and the alterations of scale tones that work over them

exploring the diminished, augmented , melodic and harmonic scales and their embedded chords .. again.. their inversions in all voicings in all keys and positions

now coming from this vantage point..a standard should present an open pallet to explore the melody and harmony with some of the aforementioned material


I admit I have studied (and continue to) the diminished, augmented and melodic minor scales and their embedded chords in many keys and have a feel of being able to use much of what they offer in my improv settings

and it has taken me years to come to this place

I dont know if this is any help to you..but I hope you get something from it

[Jimmy Smith]

How to make a solo:

1. You must sequence motifs including short bits such as 3 or 4 notes, or longer lines. You must also learn how to make phrases which have a definite start and end.
2. You must hit the changes most of the time and at least the key centers. You must also have command of how to blend tonalities in your lines. Arps and scales are essential, plus riffs, then other devices such as intervals.
3. You must groove with the time, usually 8th notes as a base, but it varies per groove. And have some rhythmic excitement.
4. You must build some sort of drama or tension and release to make it interesting.
5. Try to have a feeling to sections of your music. Laid back, aggressive, bluesy, joyful, pretty, Monkish etc. Bonus if you can learn to make more distinct feelings.

When I struggled, I decided to break down a solo to the building blocks and this is what I've determined. I think the biggest obstacle is trying to focus too much on being creative. A solo comes alive when you string together motifs and it builds on the groove and gains momentum. Then it starts to have melodic purpose. You don't need to come up with this epic idea at the start.

So my advice is try sequencing short bits and long bits. Learn to make short phrases and long phrases. Try to have a climax or 2 in the solo. And try to focus on a feeling that you want to convey such as laid back and bluesy and then building. Don't be afraid of using theoretical devices, that is what music is made up of. Eventually you get the hang of constructing material and there's no 'ugh I can't think of anything good' roadblock.

[fleaaaaaa]

I would focus at listening to a lot of classic jazz, learning tunes (so melodies and chord progressions), and doing as many transcriptions as possible. Also play with others if you can!

Also... transcribing your favourite licks, write them down if you need to and use them in every tune you learn. They will become more and more your own and you can shape them into something new.

A whole solo may be overwhelming although learning a full solo can teach you the storytelling aspect of improvisation.

[Bop Head]

Barry Harris who used to live with Thelonious Monk in the New Jersey mansion of Rothschild heir and patron for many jazz musicians Pannonica de Koenigswaerter (the “Jazz Baroness”) recalled Monk spending one or two hours practicing one tune only.

That way you can try to apply everything you have practiced so far, all the things you say “aren’t cutting it”.

Start with playing the melody of a tune over and over. At a certain point ideas for embellishments come naturally.

There is a good article of master improvisor Lee Konitz’ “10 step method” leading from playing the original melody to “pure inspiration”.

[fleaaaaaa]

Hi,
I've been an avid jazz guitar student through various online means for 5+ years. This is after 35+ years of learning and playing classic rock, blues and a little jazz.
Mike

Just remember when you learnt blues and classic rock that the pentatonic scale acts as a frame for vocabulary - licks. The scale on its own isn't generally enough.

You should start with that idea for authentic sounding jazz.

[Rsilver]

Work on your jazz imagination. Take a tune … say Blue Bossa … can you hear (imagine) a solo in your head? (If not, do a lot more listening to the genre.)

Now work on getting your ideas out onto the instrument. This requires ears, so do some transcribing. Try to relate your ideas to the scales (pentatonics, major, minor) that you know. Always start from your imagination and see if you can get it out to the axe. Slowly it will happen… gradually going quicker.

[fleaaaaaa]

Work on your jazz imagination. Take a tune … say Blue Bossa … can you hear (imagine) a solo in your head? (If not, do a lot more listening to the genre.)

Now work on getting your ideas out onto the instrument. This requires ears, so do some transcribing. Try to relate your ideas to the scales (pentatonics, major, minor) that you know. Always start from your imagination and see if you can get it out to the axe. Slowly it will happen… gradually going quicker.

I second this but it's easier to learn your favourite licks first - reimagine those and the more you can play the more you think "if I can do this, would this idea work too?".

Light bulb moments

[wzpgsr]

I’m currently transcribing a single chorus from a Barry Harris solo. While I work on the larger transcription, I am taking one phrase he plays over a minor 9 chord and playing it every which I can think of:

- Playing it through the cycle one fingering at a time
- Playing through the cycle with the nearest fingering available for each key change
- Playing it in different harmonic contexts (play the phrase in C minor over a A-7b5, or over B7 in a ii-V resolving to E for an altered sound, over Cm7 in a ii-V resolving to Bb, etc.
- Consciously and slowly (at first) playing the phrase in those various scenarios and fingerings in different tunes

[emanresu]

I know a good many tunes at this point, but I feel that when I just turn myself loose with trying to solo, I have no good ideas that come naturally.

Figure out maybe 4 bar solo-ideas for mostly used chord progressions regurarly, often. And if it's a really good one, might be worth to practice it into the bones.
This activity activates the part of the mind where those "good ideas" are supposed to come from. Even if you don't come up with a good idea every time - it still nudges it.

[Jimmy blue note]

That's an impressive and enviable list of things you've got under your belt.
Do you have a playing partner at or above your level you can play with?
Practice duo, shake it up. When you practice by yourself, try playing as a duet with yourself, alternating changes, measures, phrases and tune segments between comping and soloing and build on things you hear rather than devices you practice. This can be a part of your practice routine that pulls you out of yourself, your perceived limitations and gets you into practicing the music making side (listening). Duo practicing can change your life.
Different world, different experience, different set of ears and a different reason to pick up your guitar.
Play music with a singer. Play music with a horn player. Play music with a rhythm player. Play music with a drummer.
Discover the reason for all those things you've been told you need to know.

Have fun.

[maxsmith]

Yes, all of that.

I've been teaching guitar over 30 years. In my experience the biggest thing holding back intermediate level players are the following:

• Trying to tackle too many things at once. Pick just one or two things and then practice the hell out of them, and nothing else for at least a week.
• Not spending enough time on a topic. Too often I'll show a student something and the very next week they want to work on something completely different. When I ask them if they worked on the previous weeks topic, they give me a sheepish look and say no.

[mbar65]

My thanks to you all that took the time to provide sound advice and ideas for better ways to learn and practice for me and others in this forum. There are many good approaches. Some I've heard and/or used and they are reinforcements. Others are new ideas. I do keep a journal so I intend to summarize the ideas in a list and continue to refer to it.

I did play live with a quartet (piano, bass, drums, me) for a period of time that started before covid and continued during it. A few times also a really good trumpet player sat in. This helped my playing greatly. Unfortunately one of the guys notified us a month ago he couldn't do it anymore with his schedule so I'll have to find another opportunity to play with people. This, clearly, makes a huge difference, especially if some or all of the players are better.

Right now I found (last week) Pat Martino's Just Friends off El Hombre. So I'm getting into picking apart that solo and getting a few of his lines under my fingers. I'm good at picking one tune and staying with it so I'll stay with Just Friends as my daily/weekly practice tune for several more weeks.

Be well everyone.
Mike

[Sean65]

Perhaps take a break from typical “learning” and start creating. Its good to forget everything you know and think more in terms of textures and moods. I enjoy dark practice for this. Switch off all the lights and play off a drone note or a backing track of changes you like and just explore. Intentionally bastardize everything you know. Play less, dance off the chords, dont be scared of whole tones, repeat the same note, improvise on the two bass strings, etc etc. exploring is creative.