maj13#11

[princeplanet]

Any fans?

[pingu]

don’t think I’ve ever played one

got any nice shapes for them ?

[rpjazzguitar]

C E F# G B D A

Let's give the root to the bassist. And, let's hear the 5th as an overtone of the bass note (good luck).

now we've got E F# B D A.

You need the E so it sounds like a major chord.

You need the F# or it won't be a #11

You need the B to distinguish it as a major 13th. Otherwise, wouldn't it be a C69#11?

You need the D or it would be an add6. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but a 13th usually implies a 9th, doesn't it?

And, you need the A so it's a 13th.

That means you could focus on E F# B D A. That looks like a Bm7 with an added 4th. That chord can be played x22232.

The chord tones include the entire G major (C lydian) scale. In practice most players will go for a Cmajor type chord with an F# instead of a G. That could be Cmaj7#11 or C69#11 or similar. But if you really need a Cmaj13#11, see above.

[ragman1]

I'm not sure how serious a question this is. Theoretically it's easy. In practice is a different matter.

Theoretically, all you do is add the requisite notes to a major triad. In C that's CEG plus the maj7, 9, #11 and 13. That's CEGBDF#A.

On a piano, again technically, you have 10 fingers so you can just play the notes. Even then it would probably sound too full and a bit messy.

So it would depend on the musical context. Is the M13#11 a final chord? Or does it come at the end of a cadence? Or is it part of a modal sequence of sounds?

On a guitar, as we know, the notes we use are frequently restrained by the layout of the neck and six strings. So, again it would depend on the context (and which key you're in).

Technically, notes above the octave are played above the octave but on a guitar they're often played wherever it's convenient. So the 13 might be played as a 6 and the #11 as a #4. Which actually makes nonsense of the whole thing, at least soundwise.

So, again, it's probably a question of chord chemistry a la Ted Greene. In other words, make a chord that gives the best option for the sound you want in the context of what you're doing. That would probably be quite different in a band context to a solo chord-melody arrangement. So it might amount to using just a very few notes skilfully placed to give the best effect.

But if all you want is a M13#11, that can be looked up in any chord book or online site.

[princeplanet]

OK, so maybe my take on it is a simplification - just take a M6 grip and flatten the 5th. What else would you call it? Surely not M6b5?

Most of you guys will recognise this chord under at least 3 different names - ie, it's other inversions. But not often seen as a major chord, as in a major tonic chord. Or is it?

[Christian Miller]

I tend to use 6 x 5 7 5 x as an inversion of Em7b5 or Gm6 but no reason why it couldn’t work in a Bb Lydian context. I don’t think I have a good snappy chord symbol for it in this context. To me Bb13#11 suggests the G is in the upper part of the chord. So maybe Bb6#11?

it’s a bit like D/C, D7 inversion or C Lydian chord? (The answer is yes)

[grahambop]

OK, so maybe my take on it is a simplification - just take a M6 grip and flatten the 5th. What else would you call it? Surely not M6b5?

Most of you guys will recognise this chord under at least 3 different names - ie, it's other inversions. But not often seen as a major chord, as in a major tonic chord. Or is it?

Good chord to end a tune with, e.g. for solo guitar.

[Jimmy Smith]

I'm a fan of altering major. There's a lot you can do. I play Hammond so I can use whatever combo of notes I want. For guitar, I'd assume you'd want to start with the most essential notes for the chord as spelled by princeplanet and Christian. Then you could expand on it if you wanted by a note or 2 and experiment with root or rootless.

[ragman1]

OK, so maybe my take on it is a simplification - just take a M6 grip and flatten the 5th. What else would you call it? Surely not M6b5?

Probably the most common shape for CM13#11 is



Which I don't really like because the F# in the middle makes it a bit indistinct.


But technically the #11 chord should also contain the 9 so C6 becomes C69#11. That's a good chord.

[Jimmy blue note]

There are triad pairs used in IV chord situations. They fit the bill and they impart a nice sense of internal movement. I like triad pairs because they have a great sense of melodic movement and depending on which particular ones you use, you can set up beautiful textures and tension/release or to build tension. Triad and dyad combos are also way cool

[Jimmy blue note]

Any fans?

[princeplanet]

hehe, nice one, make it yourself?

[setemupjoe]

8.7.7.7.7.7

It does the job and is easy to play but maybe a bit of an overkill for many situations. I prefer smaller voicings.

[Reg]

I'm not trying to be... something. But many of you need to start using more chords together in Chord Patterns.

Playing single chords in isolation or inversions... just doesn't really happen that much when playing.

Cmaj Lydian.... any voicing you decide to use depending on what leadline your using is one of many sub-dom chords that help expand single isolated chords... into Chord Patterns.

The Virtual Jam thread should also require learning how to comp for all the tunes. Just like learning how to develop melodies into solos etc... or creating solos in one of the many melodic developmental approaches.... comping needs the same approach and practice. (Much More)

[princeplanet]

Good chord to end a tune with, e.g. for solo guitar.

OK, cool, so you have ended a tune with this chord? I'd suppose if you could sneak a 7th or 9th in there (pretty hard!) then this kind of chord would work easily as well, after all it's just a Lydian sound - a 7th, 9th or 13th doesn't really change it's sound all that much.

The reason I ask the question is that I've been playing around with the m6 pitch group where it serves as the ii, V and i in minor (iim7b5 - <rootless> V7b9b13 - i m6 ). Common enough, but when you play these 3 chords to serve as a 2 - 5 - 1 in C min :


4 x 3 5 3 (Dm7b5)

x 6 6 4 6 (rootless G7b9b13)

x 3 5 2 4 (Cm6)


but this time sing the roots under the exact same chords as though a 2 - 5 - 1 for it's relative Eb major,


you get Fm6 - Bb7b9sus - Eb6#11 (thanks Christian).


Dunno, I thought it was too cool not to have been a "thing"...

[Reg]

triplets
4 3 4 3 3 X
X 3 4 3 4 X
X 5 4 5 6 X
X 8 6 8 8 X
X X 6 8 8 6
X X 6 7 7 9
X X 8 8 8 10

[Jim Soloway]

This has all the mandatory elements, sounds ok and is easy to play. If you're playing with a bass player just leave out the root if necessary. I play the Eb version of this as the opening chord of Blue In Green

[Sam Sherry]

But technically the #11 chord should also contain the 9 so C6 becomes C69#11. That's a good chord.

Moving forward from @Ragman1 's post:

C 6/9 = C E A D at x 3 2 2 3 x

Add #11 = C E A D F# at x 3 2 2 3 2

That would be D Maj / C Maj or D7 / C (add E) if it's easier to conceptualize that way

[princeplanet]

triplets
4 3 4 3 3 X
X 3 4 3 4 X
X 5 4 5 6 X
X 8 6 8 8 X
X X 6 8 8 6
X X 6 7 7 9
X X 8 8 8 10

4 3 4 3 3 X - Ab9b5 ?
X 3 4 3 4 X - Cm7b5 ?
X 5 4 5 6 X - D7#9 ?
X 8 6 8 8 X - Fm9 ?
X X 6 8 8 6 - Fm11 ?
X X 6 7 7 9 - Bb7#5#9 ?
X X 8 8 8 10 - Ebmaj7 ?


I mean I like it, I just don't understand it .... especially the first 3 chords. Care to dumb it down for me?

[grahambop]

OK, cool, so you have ended a tune with this chord? I'd suppose if you could sneak a 7th or 9th in there (pretty hard!) then this kind of chord would work easily as well, after all it's just a Lydian sound - a 7th, 9th or 13th doesn't really change it's sound all that much.

Yes I used it for the final chord here, i.e. 2 3 2 2 3 2 which in this context was C69#11 (I doubled the F# in the bass just to make it sound a bit more mysterious or something!)

[Reg]

Yes so Prince... The point is ...it's very common practice to comp, as well as solo with more than one set of changes going on. Different layers of harmonic motion going on the same time.

Like you were hinting at using II V of a Min and the using a related II V of the related Maj of that Min target


D-7 G7 to C- and F-7 Bb7 to Ebmaj

You can use any versions of that simple chord pattern... even though most would hear or think of ...

D-7b5 G7alt to C-7 with the C-7 functioning as a VI-7 and the F-7 Bb7 to Ebmaj7 being the related Imaj version

But there are a few standard different modal versions... right. D-7b5 G7alt to C-7 Dorian and the related Ebma7 becomes Lydian... with opens MM doors.

So now you have 3 layers or versions of the same chord progression going on. Well technically that would be 6 tonal targets and you can keep expanding
Anyway the more you use chord patterns... which create more options of Tonal targets.

There is no real dumb down version without learning standard Chord patterns, with their harmonic variations which create different Tonal Targets.

It's like using subs.... with the subs being series of chords and their modal variations. And then the Blue note thing.. which is what personally really gets one out of the vanilla thing.

I'll try and sneak my phone on during my gig tonight... or tomorrow night will probable be better... better drums and bass players.

Or we could start with a tune... take your D-7b5 G7 to C- etc.... maybe make it part of tune... Close your Eyes... I know it's wrong key... but the tunes easy right. Or pick another tune... It doesn't really matter.... It's the style of playing tunes, not the actual tune.

[ragman1]

I doubled the F# in the bass just to make it sound a bit more mysterious or something!

Oh, yes... hadn't thought of that... not bad!

[Jimmy Smith]

Agree with what your saying Reg. Chord alterations aren't usually for 1 use in a vacuum. They're for adding harmonic complexity and interest in the playing and in the flow of the chord progression.

Also there can be many circumstances in the ensemble where each instrument expands differently. Say the bassist plays a C arpeggio, the pianist comps a Cmaj9, and the guitarist solos on Cmaj13#11.

As an organist, I get to practice and realize this all on my own in real time. I provide my accompaniment as well as play lead over it. So I can choose to play a bass line that outlines the basic changes while expanding with my right hand. Ideally, the accompaniment and lead shouldn't always be locked. For example a 1-6-2-5 turnaround on a blues in the left hand and and blues language over that in the right hand rather than trying to outline each chord.

[princeplanet]

Yes I used it for the final chord here, i.e. 2 3 2 2 3 2 which in this context was C69#11 (I doubled the F# in the bass just to make it sound a bit more mysterious or something!)

Indeed, tasty!

[princeplanet]

Yes so Prince... The point is ...it's very common practice to comp, as well as solo with more than one set of changes going on. Different layers of harmonic motion going on the same time.

Like you were hinting at using II V of a Min and the using a related II V of the related Maj of that Min target


D-7 G7 to C- and F-7 Bb7 to Ebmaj

You can use any versions of that simple chord pattern... even though most would hear or think of ...

D-7b5 G7alt to C-7 with the C-7 functioning as a VI-7 and the F-7 Bb7 to Ebmaj7 being the related Imaj version

But there are a few standard different modal versions... right. D-7b5 G7alt to C-7 Dorian and the related Ebma7 becomes Lydian... with opens MM doors.

So now you have 3 layers or versions of the same chord progression going on. Well technically that would be 6 tonal targets and you can keep expanding
Anyway the more you use chord patterns... which create more options of Tonal targets.

There is no real dumb down version without learning standard Chord patterns, with their harmonic variations which create different Tonal Targets.

It's like using subs.... with the subs being series of chords and their modal variations. And then the Blue note thing.. which is what personally really gets one out of the vanilla thing.

I'll try and sneak my phone on during my gig tonight... or tomorrow night will probable be better... better drums and bass players.

Or we could start with a tune... take your D-7b5 G7 to C- etc.... maybe make it part of tune... Close your Eyes... I know it's wrong key... but the tunes easy right. Or pick another tune... It doesn't really matter.... It's the style of playing tunes, not the actual tune.

Gotcha (I think), but the thing I was trying to express is a bit simpler - being the idea that the single pitch group can work over a 2-5-1 in min as well as over a 2-5-1 in maj.

Using nothing but m6:

Dm7b5 - (Fm6)

G7b9b13 - (Abm6)

Cm6 - (Cm6)


and in Maj:


Fm6 - (Fm6)

Bb7b9b13 - (Abm6)

Eb6#11 - (Cm6) (this chord is sounding less weird to me the more I hear it)


So using nothing but m6 arp notes to improvise over each chord kinda works. Now add a note to the each m6 arp - say the 9th or 11th. Sounds good to me. Next, just add chromatics...