Melodic Minor over Dominant - fretboard diagrams?

[alltunes]

Basic rule:
resolving dom chord = 1/2 step up
non resolving dom chord= 5th up

Anybody have some simple patterns (fingerings helpful) organized from the 6th and 5th string root?
By patterns maybe a fretboard diagram?

Thanks

[jonh]

There is a good lesson on this on the site.

Over G dominant you can play Ab melodic minor which is the same as G altered.
The Altered Scale For Jazz Guitar (Scale Diagrams & Licks)

[pauln]

[equenda]

If you compare the Ab melodic minor scale to the Ab major the only different note is the C natural (C flat/B in Ab melodic minor).
So if you play Ab major on G7 the C note is not a problem since is the perfect 4th (or perfect 11th).

Of course you can start the major scale from G:

G Ab Bb C Db Eb F

…..and so you add b9 #9 11 b5 #5 to the G7 chord.

Since I don’t like scale anymore and I like arpeggios, on G7 you can play all the arpeggios from the Ab Major scale:

Ab Maj9
Bb m9
C m9 (or Cm7 with b9 if you like it…)
Db Maj9
Eb9
Fm9
Gm7b5 (with major 9 or flat 9….choose what you like…)

Playing major arpeggios can be a very good solution if you want to add some Tension and Resolution to your single note lines without spend A LOT of time to learn melodic minor scales/arpeggios fingerings.

This concept is discussed in my video on the “Satin Doll” etude.

Ciao!

ettore

[Reg]

Yea... alltunes,
the lesson on this site is good start... generally most start with the two related MM dominant chords.

If your target is C something, maj or min. You would use G7altered or Db7 lydian Dominant. Sometimes refered to as Tritone subs. Same set of notes which are derived from Ab MM. just using a different starting note for reference.

The licks on the site mentioned above are generally from that approach. Which is very common practice when playing jazz.

The point mentioned about skipping learning MM is silly.

[alltunes]

Thanks all. The diagrams that pauln posted are exactly what I was looking for. Also I do have Mike Stern's Altered Scale book so will check that out as far as application. He does devote the first chapter to MM.

I'm familiar with the application* I was just having a little trouble visually organizing the scale in my mind. It did not occur to me to start the lick from the major 7th which in a resolving dominant chord would be the root in one application. i.e. G7 chord....start the MM scale on G. Duh......these light bulb moments happen to me all the time in my jazz travels. It is very helpful to me to think of MM as the major scale with a flatted third.

*Emily Remler simplifies it this way:

A resolving dominant chord = play MM 1/ 1 step up
A non-resolving (static) dominant chord = play MM 5th up

[pauln]

I invented a scale hunting for some jazz sounds, decades later discovered
it was called Lydian Dominant. So now I hear MM as the fifth mode of LD.

Corresponding LD way:

A resolving dominant chord = play LD tritone away (half step above target)
A non-resolving (static) dominant chord = play LD right there

[Reg]

Yea... eventually You'll start to hear and learn to use all dominant chords. The scale MM is just the source for the notes. Just like G13 is derived from a Cmaj. scale. Or you could say G7 is derived from Amin. (Aeolian).

G7 altered is G7alt.... it's not the Ab mm starting on the 7th degree. That's just a learning tool.

Personally and also with many composers, arrangers and jazz performers.... we tend to think and hear MM as closer to Dorian. Dorian with a maj. 7th. which helps organize musically using II V's.

When one become comfortable with Modal concepts.... you'll start have different ways to musically organize Chord extensions and how chords work together.

But you do need to become comfortable all the chords derived or created from the basic scales.

[Christian Miller]

To reiterate what Reg said - you can learn the fingerings but you need to learn the sound.

I agree melodic minor as altered Dorian is the way to go, because that’s the way it’s most often applied; for instance in a II V. Often in jazz lines you’ll actually see the two being used in conjunction; a good example is miles solo from So What, or the melody of Chelsea Bridge.

The advantage is you can focus on that one note - the maj7, C# in D Mel min. This gives the distinctive sound of the scale which gives

#11 on G7
9 on Bm7b5
#5 on Fmaj7#11
13 on E7b9sus4
and so on

(let’s ignore altered for a second haha)

It also pays to look into the augmented triad as a basic application of melodic minor - F A C# for our examples. Later the Fmaj7#5, F A C# E was popular

Good tunes to look at to get a sense of this basic sound Chelsea Bridge, Take the A Train.

If you get good at hearing this note as a colour it will help you use the scale effectively. (But not really for altered quite so much which is a bit of an odd one out)

Contemporary players use other techniques such as intervallic lines, upper structure triads and so on, but this will give you a grounding in how the scale can be used for straightahead jazz.

Heres a video I did a while back

[alltunes]

Just reread Mike Stern chapter on MM from his altered scale book. He looks at MM from the root and not a 1/2 step up. He does not discuss using MM on non-resolving dominant chords in this chapter.

[Reg]

Mike's great player and OK guy.... but you might need to expand your musical views.

So simple question.... what's a resolving and a non-resolving dominant chord. And how would you describe...Dominant. Maybe reverse the order of questions LOL.

These are not trick questions.

Eventually you might start using chords within.... Chord Patterns. Chord Patterns are series of chords that harmonically imply what single chords imply. They just have more going on and generally have more layers of harmonic organization and define jazz concepts better.

Think of just playing roots or even a melodic lines and making each note a chord. Not voicings or inversions... different chords. I'm sure you already use some... II V's,.... I bVll bVI V.....I VI II V and all the different versions using subs.
Anyway.... Don't get stuck on rules, generally they are just guidelines to help one get to the end result.

Which sounds like learning the fretboard with MM as reference I'm still a believer that the 7 position approach works better, again for getting to that point where the patterns are 12 frets with repeat

[wolflen]

Reg: Think of just playing roots or even a melodic lines and making each note a chord. Not voicings or inversions... different chords. I'm sure you already use some... II V's,.... I bVll bVI V.....I VI II V and all the different versions using subs.
Anyway.... Don't get stuck on rules, generally they are just guidelines to help one get to the end result.


I see the study of the melodic minor an important building block in the improvised line..and yes .. put rules aside and experiment..harmonically and melodically

building the MM scale in thirds..the last four constructed chords can be seen as dominant.. (in C MM ) F7 G7 Ami7b5=F9 Bmi7b5=G9

Now the amount of melodic ideas that can be generated from just these chords and their implied harmonic possibilities...tritones and triad pairs..whole tone..diminished and augmented flavors

when I listen to Bill Evans play triads in a fairly simple progression (All Blues) I get a glimpse of his approach..a basic triad to him could be part of many different scales , upper chord partials or melodic fragments from many of the tunes and classical pieces that are part of his vast vocabulary

the simple triad .. suddenly unlocks unlimited possibilities

[mjo]

I'd like to thank you all for this thread !
I've saved it, so I can keep coming back. There's an iceberg here ... and I'm just starting to chew on the tip.

Reg asks:

So simple question.... what's a resolving and a non-resolving dominant chord. And how would you describe...Dominant. Maybe reverse the order of questions LOL.

What is a dominant chord ? describe it. This has stuck in my craw forever ! ..it's never been good enough to say: "V likes to lead to I" ...why ? The best I can do, so far is the semi-tone move. ...Can look like a sus 4 on the target chord = in this way, I can see a ii chord as dominant to V. ...Can also look like a Maj7, b3 ( aug V ). These are resolving ..and I think there's a chance I'm chasing butterflies here. For non-resolving, I think I have everything resolving, in some way ...
..tell me what you think of that..
I'll save the other questions for later. One bite at a time.

-best,
Mike

[Reg]

I'd like to thank you all for this thread !
I've saved it, so I can keep coming back. There's an iceberg here ... and I'm just starting to chew on the tip.

Reg asks:

What is a dominant chord ? describe it. This has stuck in my craw forever ! ..it's never been good enough to say: "V likes to lead to I" ...why ? The best I can do, so far is the semi-tone move. ...Can look like a sus 4 on the target chord = in this way, I can see a ii chord as dominant to V. ...Can also look like a Maj7, b3 ( aug V ). These are resolving ..and I think there's a chance I'm chasing butterflies here. For non-resolving, I think I have everything resolving, in some way ...
..tell me what you think of that..
I'll save the other questions for later. One bite at a time.

-best,
Mike

Yea... so chasing maybe the wrong butterflies, LOL. I thing 99% of forum members are somewhat in same boat.
If we're getting into Dominant... ( Tonic and Sub-Dom.) You almost need to get into Analysis.

Tonic is generally the Tonal Center.... the tonic. one pitch. You can, and with jazz, you will have expanded use of what we call the tonal center(s), we have Target Tonal Centers.... Tonal Targets.

We also use Modal concepts to expand Tonal Centers. Which means... we change the relationships between the pitches and which pitches control the movement. (We move away from Maj/Min. functional Harmony... or Ionian guidelines which control melodic interaction and Chord Function, (how Chords interact... the Tonic, sub-dom and dom chord movement guidelines)

The Function of a chord is the relationship to the tonal center.... or to a Target Tonal Center. I'm not talking about modulation.... with jazz we expand all the chordal and melodic relationships that can still function to a Tonal Center.

We use modal concepts.... Blue Notes and related Harmony or Blue Note Chords and Chord Patterns. And we also combine Modal concepts... like using MM and Dorian as one . There's more, but hopefully your getting picture...

So we can use the term to imply a type of chord in isolation, no context etc...... 7th chords, or Chord Patterns that imply harmonically the 7th chord.

But with Jazz Analysis.... Dom. Function implies the strongest type of harmonic movement, tension etc.... And the chord doesn't need to be a 7th type of chord ... generally it is, but the use of modal and blues concepts can camouflage or even change the construction of the chord or chord pattern that is implying the Dom. Function.

Anyway.... melodic movement still has implications.... but the tritone isn't the all powerful... LOL

[kris]

G7 altered is G7alt.... it's not the Ab mm starting on the 7th degree. That's just a learning tool.

This is a great learning tool.This helps a lot in quickly applying the appropriate notes in improvisation.
Simplified thinking brings quick results.I think a lot of musicians do that. First understood this when I watched Emilly Remler's training video a long time ago.

[Christian Miller]

Mike's great player and OK guy....

And thereby hangs a tale?

[kris]

And thereby hangs a tale?

Mike Stern is very optimistic and that translates into his guitar playing.

[Christian Miller]

Mike Stern is very optimistic and that translates into his guitar playing.

I mean more - would we rather be
1) an ok player and a great guy
or
2) a great player and an ok guy?

[whiskey02]

Alltunes,
Appreciate the spirit of sharing knowledge but it's not cool to post copyrighted material especially from a recent publication by a living author. Mike Stern buys groceries too.

[alltunes]

Alltunes,
Appreciate the spirit of sharing knowledge but it's not cool to post copyrighted material especially from a recent publication by a living author. Mike Stern buys groceries too.

You know I thought about it before posting but came to the conclusion that my excerpt above is more of an advertisement and plug for Mike's book more then anything. After all this is just one page of entire book devoted to the subject of altered scales. The book also has downloadable sound samples fret board diagrams licks phrases etc.

Mike discussing his book:

Here is a link to purchase your own copy: https://www.amazon.com/Altered-Scale-Soloing-Jazz-Guitar/dp/1789332230?asin=1789332230&revisionId=&format=4&de pth=1

[whiskey02]

For myself I don't like to "think" A while I'm playing on Ab. To add to that, I think when you (and I) are playing altered tones, we should be aware of what those notes are as applied to the chord you are playing over rather than just being satisfied that these notes work in this situation. In other words I prefer to know that I'm playing the b5 and #5 of Ab7 as opposed to ..play this shape from another key and it "works".
In line with this practice I sometimes divide how I think or approach playing on alt Dom chords into 2 sections. Firstly I find it very easy to directly apply R, b9, #9, 3rd over a Dom7, perhaps because everything is so close to home? Second part is to be aware that the natural 3 to b5 of the Dom encircles the root of the 1maj the b5 to #5 encircles the 9th of its 1maj and#5 to b7 encircles the 3rd degree of 1maj.
Also be aware that the root of the V7 Dom is the 5th of its 1maj, so you might want to be cautious of "getting there to early" in your line. In short this technique gives you two tetra fragments to work with. For my own playing this is a good " limitation" to prevent me from overplaying, trying to squeeze too much in when a smaller idea makes a better impact than trying to fit everything you know into one measure.
Hope this helps someone.

edit:. forgot to mention b9 to #9 encircles the 6th of 1maj which can come in handy.

[John A.]

I mean more - would we rather be
1) an ok player and a great guy
or
2) a great player and an ok guy?

How about great player and great guy (having seen Stern play probably 20 + times, spoken with him a couple of times, and taken a lesson with him, that’s how I see him). For myself, I aspire to OK on all fronts and take it day by day.

[I also suspect you guys are making way more of "OK" than Reg meant, and that it’s a compliment, not a dig.]

[wolflen]

How about great player and great guy (having seen Stern play probably 20 + times, spoken with him a couple of times, and taken a lesson with him, that’s how I see him). For myself, I aspire to OK on all fronts and take it day by day.

[I also suspect you guys are making way more of "OK" than Reg meant, and that it’s a compliment, not a dig.]

OK could mean:

He played with Miles, OK?

[kris]

I mean more - would we rather be
1) an ok player and a great guy
or
2) a great player and an ok guy?

nr 3
a great player and a great guy.

[kris]

OK could mean:

He played with Miles, OK?

It means that Mike is a great musician ...