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OK, so there's this thing I've been doing for years where I double the amount of bars to the backing track when learning to improvise against something, so to take the simplest example, expanding a 12 bar jazz blues to be a 24 bar jazz blues. I started doing this ages ago because I wasn't quick enough to negotiate 2 chord changes in a bar, and somehow developed etudes and lines that fit more notes in against each chord.
Now, you're thinking that it's the same thing as double timing against a slower tempo, and it is, but I preferred the backing to be playing the faster tempo, so...
Anyway, I was always only supposed to use this kind of practice as training wheels, and revert to the "proper" way to play these tunes once I had some language under the fingers. But at some point I realised I actually enjoyed the longer versions more (maybe I over did it?). Trouble is, nobody else likes doubling things because they're not used to it! So I get talked out of playing them that way.
So I was wondering, has this ever been a thing? Are there players, or certain recordings that you could point to where tunes have been expanded in this way?
And how would you feel personally if asked to double the duration of every bar in a tune. Could you easily adapt? Or would it be just weird, or even boring?Last edited by princeplanet; 08-08-2022 at 11:09 AM.
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08-08-2022 09:09 AM
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Put those etudes on some sheet music and call them compositions. Then you're playing originals and the other guys have to learn them.
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Hehe, nah, most will see what's going on... (you would too, no?)
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Just change the melody to one of your etudes, how many "rhythm changes" songs are there? That's what I would do anyway.
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Well, even with RC, would you think it's weird (or even just not very satisfying) to expand it to twice the length? I mean, I imagine bass players are so used to the next chord coming in a certain place, that it would be uncomfortable for them to "pad out". Compers with their chord patterns, even other soloists, everyone is so used to things fitting inside 32 bars or whatever, I just know they'd much prefer to keep it that way.
Oh, as for my "etudes", they're just patterns and sequences taken through all keys, all positions etc. Definitely not very musical on their own!
Last edited by princeplanet; 08-08-2022 at 11:58 AM.
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Yeah some people will complain, but you can’t make everyone happy.
I like the idea, why not make a chart and send it over to the weekly jam thread.
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You don't need a chart! Just take your fave tune and double the bars. So, either slow the melody to fit, or swap it for something else.
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Joe Pass recorded Wave on Tudo Bem! in double time feel. So, the melody went at the usual tempo or maybe a bit slower, but the rhythm section was playing a samba groove at twice that tempo.
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Pat Martino did the same thing with his version of ‘Along Came Betty’. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Actually I’ve realised that I did too when I did it with a samba groove for the virtual jam thread. I guess the effect is equivalent to playing 16th-note lines over the original tempo (instead of 8th-note lines).
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Dexter Gordon often did something like this on ballads, he would play the melody and his solo at the slow ballad tempo, then the pianist would double the tempo during his solo at some point (the bassist and drummer would follow him) while keeping the rate of the chord changes the same (as it were). Then Dexter would come back in on the bridge (at the doubled tempo), and finally revert to the original ballad tempo for the last A section.
Hard to explain in words, but if you listen to the recordings he made in his later groups with George Cables, you can hear it.
I expect there are other examples of people doubling tempos on ballads but keeping the chord change rate the same. I think Bill Evans and Jim Hall did it on My Funny Valentine, for example.
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There is a procedure called the half note melody where an existing melody, no matter its form, is decomposed into just two notes per measure - but they are the two notes that most characterize the melody line's forward movement. Usually you get this by removing the approach notes, the side slips, the enclosures, etc. and select to two notes that make the melodic core or schema of the line. The motivation is to use the resulting two notes per bar as an improvisational learning/practice organisational frame about which you may then apply concepts you have learned.
It looks like you are doing the opposite; instead of reducing the number of notes you are doubling the period of harmonic rhythm in order to have more space to increase the number of notes in order to further develop improvisational ideas.
When I practice I generally slow down into tempo super rubato and take my time on each change experimenting with longer ideas or a few ideas, moving on just fast enough to still feel the changes in the progression.
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I don't know if this terminology is universal, but around here, people mean different things by "double time", and "double time feel". Originally Posted by grahambop
Double time means twice as fast.
Double time feel means that the melody and chord changes occur at the same tempo, but the rhythm section plays as if the tempo was doubled.
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...or just halve the tempo and play it double timed ! Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
If that makes sense...
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Nice and swingin' as usual Graham ! And yeah, ballads ala Dexter - a good way to use this idea, cheers. Originally Posted by grahambop
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I think you’re all trying to define and compare cut time, half time, and double time with common time. These are all different from expanding the bar patterns in a tune. There are many blues with an extra 4 bars in the first 1 section - Koko Taylor’s “Spellbound” is a classic in this style. It’s a 16 bar form but it’s not a 16 bar blues. Some double up the 1, 4 and 1 but leave the 5 and the turnaround to make a 20 bar form. Bonamassa’s version of Never Make Your Move Too Soon is a great example of this. And many songs built around the lyric take even more liberties with the basic blues form.
Cut time (“alla breva”) means a 2/2 time signature and is indicated with either a 2/2 or a big C with a vertical line through it. This is usually used to make it easier to score and read complex passages because it reduces eighth notes to quarter notes, sixteenth notes to eighth notes etc. Along with twice the number of bars, this facilitates reading fast complex lines. It’s commonly used for many Latin tunes both because of the complexity and because they often have a 2 beat feel, especially the claves.
Half time and double time refer to the melody line in comparison to the rhythm and changes. We often double the playing pace during solos in ballads without changing the structure of the song - Misty is a commonly played tune in which a soloist may go double time for a chorus or two while the drummer, bass, and comping play the changes as written. The solo blowing sounds twice as fast, but it’s just twice the notes each with half the duration and the tempo and structure are the same.
Half time is the opposite - it’s playing 4 beat bars with a 2 beat feel. Instead of a backbeat on 2 and 4 of each bar, it’s effectively on 3 and 7 of every 2 bars.
Calling these in the middle of a tune can be disastrous if everyone has a different definition. My group screwed up the opening of a tune royally several weeks ago. It was the first tune of the night, and the singer’s chart said “Latin”. She meant a cut time uptempo samba, and that’s how I and the drummer began. The bass player took it to mean a common time bossa and was already one change behind by the third bar. It was my fault for not finding out what she wanted and making sure everybody knew what it was. We had to stop and restart - it was the most embarrassed I’ve ever been on stage!
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I'll make sure to needle George about that when I see him [kidding!] what was the tune?
but if that's the most embarrassed you've ever been on stage you're doing pretty good
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Sadly, the singer was Paula Johns, one of my favorites and a truly world class person and artist. The tune was Night and Day, as I recall. It was entirely my fault for not clarifying whether she was going to count off 1 snap 2 snap 3 snap 4 snap for a medium bossa nova (common time) or 12341234 for a fast samba (cut time). I saw the crash coming but couldn’t do anything to stop it. I even tried to shout across the stage, to no avail. Originally Posted by wintermoon
I think I was so anxious to give her great backing that I ignored my usual routine. I try to cover all the bases in a playbook for each singer we back, so we all know exactly what to do with starts, ends, solos, dynamics etc. But I screwed that one up over something as dumb as cut vs common time.
She was a real pro about it and so nice to us that I felt even worse. The rest of the night is still a blur because I was on high alert not to let anything else get screwed up. Mea culpa!
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Don't feel bad, there were a couple of ladies that sang when I subbed for you. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
One was very nice (and quite attractive) and called Summertime. After trying to find what key she was comfortable in we started. The band was on the release and she wasn't even close to getting there yet. But we muddled through, as you know most times everyone will figure it out and it calls less attention to the mixup.
She felt bad and said she'd come back next week to sing another but we encouraged her to sing one more. She called Lady Sings The Blues but started singing Good Morning Heartache instead. We kinda had to start that one over.
But Paula's worked a million gigs, I'm sure she's heard much worse and probably forgot all about it before she even left.
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True enough. But Buddy Rich had it right when he said that the audience doesn’t know or care who played the clam - everybody on stage sounds as bad as the worst one to them. Worse, you never know who’s listening, and you never know how something you played might have affected a future gig, relationship, etc. Originally Posted by wintermoon
That’s why BR would not sit in with a band he either didn’t know or knew wasn’t top tier. And it’s why he never let anyone he didn’t know and respect sit in with his band. I wish I had that luxury- and I sure as h3ll don’t want to be remembered as the guy who screwed up someone else’s performance.
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I thought, and I'm willing to be corrected, that cut time generally dictates a two beat feel. Like putting the accent on the
"3" in 4/4. I understand that it may be easier to read for some.
Around here, I'm used to hearing "double time" meaning "twice as fast" and "double time feel" meaning the melody and chord changes go at the original pace, but the rhythm is played as if the tune is twice as fast.
Apparently, that's not universal. I found a website which says they're the same thing.
What I'm not clear on is how to notate "double time feel" with time signatures, if that can be done.
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