The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I've been doing transcribing but I haven't seen any payoff in my improvisations.

    Basically, I just transcribe stuff and hope I absorb things by osmosis.

    What are some suggestions for getting more out of transcribing?

    Do you all isolate specific phrases and practice them through all keys?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Understanding the theory/harmony behind something that sounds good to you is the key to being able to incorporate it in your playing rather than just imitating it.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by starjasmine
    Understanding the theory/harmony behind something that sounds good to you is the key to being able to incorporate it in your playing rather than just imitating it.
    Indeed. And practice varying licks. Transcribe something, isolate one aspect of it (e.g. say a triplet or a particular interval) and practice varying everything around this fixed aspect.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    I've been doing transcribing but I haven't seen any payoff in my improvisations.

    Basically, I just transcribe stuff and hope I absorb things by osmosis.

    What are some suggestions for getting more out of transcribing?

    Do you all isolate specific phrases and practice them through all keys?

    Find one short phrase which you like (or is very different from what you would play).

    1 - Learn it verbatim
    2 - Practice it over a ii v I backing (it’s function will almost always be tonic or dominant)
    3 - Move it to new keys, vary it to make it your own
    4 - Apply it to the blues (always a great form to try out new stuff on)
    5 - Apply it to standards.


    That’s the best way I found to incorporate new vocabulary into my playing. It’s not an overnight process, but the more you do it, the faster it comes.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    I've been doing transcribing but I haven't seen any payoff in my improvisations.

    Basically, I just transcribe stuff and hope I absorb things by osmosis.

    What are some suggestions for getting more out of transcribing?

    Do you all isolate specific phrases and practice them through all keys?
    variation
    using small chunks (less than 7 notes)
    sequencing through the scale

  7. #6

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    Is it a “given” that transcribing will make you a better improviser? I never drank that coolaid myself.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    variation
    using small chunks (less than 7 notes)
    sequencing through the scale
    Would this be something like starting the lick on subsequent notes of the base arpeggio, but keeping the relative intervals the same? For example, say the lick was chromatic enclosure around the 3rd of the chord followed by a chromatic enclosure around the 5th—are you suggesting something like cycling through the entire scale or arpeggio repeating the same pattern: chromatic enclosure around a chord tone, then chromatic enclosure around the next chord tone?

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
    Is it a “given” that transcribing will make you a better improviser? I never drank that coolaid myself.
    I think of it as a way to learn vocabulary. It's one leg of a chair. Other legs might include mechanical technique (so you can execute your ideas), an understanding of theory/harmony (so you can apply what you hear in other contexts), and just a lot of listening to jazz (to build and refine your concept or ideation). None of these are "rules" and there are exceptions to every rule. But these ideas come up repeatedly when good players are asked what they did to improve.
    $0.02,
    SJ

  10. #9

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    I understand you Mark. However, although it may be against one's nature to copy, if I were to try to transcribe/emulate some of (for example) your very personal moves on guitar, that might open another, previously inaccessible inner door to something else. It can happen.

    I don't know if that's clear, I may edit it later.

  11. #10

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    Presumably, you're transcribing stuff you like. I guess that isn't necessarily so, if you're doing assigned work for a class or something like that.

    But, if you like the stuff you're working on, and it's not getting into your playing, then it may be that you aren't internalizing the lines.

    So, one thing to try is putting the guitar down and singing the same lines. Maybe singing will get it into you a little deeper. Or, playing the chords and singing the lines.

    Probably best to start with just one or two passages that aren't very long. Maybe a four bar phrase over some commonplace harmony. Maybe two bars.

    Then, quickly apply it to a tune with similar harmony.

    And, don't be afraid to vary it.

    It may be a good idea to transcribe players who don't play a zillion notes. Paul Desmond comes to mind.

    I like Hank Mobley because it seemed like every passage he played was worth transcribing, but some of it is fast.

    Full disclosure: I agree with the notion that imitation is the best way to learn jazz. It's vocabulary, it's technique and it's also ear training of the exact type you need. But, for better or worse (worse, probably) I never did it that way. Don't have much patience for transcription. I do it occasionally and rarely get the material into my playing. But, now and then, usually in a live situation (including lessons) somebody will play something that catches my ear and it's in my playing, permanently, from that moment. I wish it happened more often. The result of this idiosyncratic approach is that I don't think I sound much like a typical jazz guitarist. I often wish I did, but I just don't hear music that way. OTOH, maybe that's a feature, not a bug. All that said, I wish I'd had more patience for transcribing.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    ….. The result of this idiosyncratic approach is that I don't think I sound much like a typical jazz guitarist. I often wish I did, but I just don't hear music that way. OTOH, maybe that's a feature, not a bug. All that said, I wish I'd had more patience for transcribing.
    I believe it’s a very good feature. Conformity really boors me to death. So much music is completely u listenable because of this cloning of clones who cloned clones. I’d rather listen to something original any day, even if it’s a long way from perfection of full realization of its potential.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
    Is it a “given” that transcribing will make you a better improviser? I never drank that coolaid myself.
    Well, it's been stated here by some of my favorite players on the forum.

    What would you suggest as an alternative approach?

  14. #13

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    The only approach I know of is trying to find your own voice. YMMV

  15. #14

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    And don't forget the one-transcribing is kind of learning jazz.
    You just start hearing better when you go into what others have played.
    Are there any musicians who learned differently?
    Yes .
    There are some musicians who say they have never transcribed solos, and some great musicians who do it all the time.
    I think it largely depends on the talent of the musician.It is more complicated.
    what does a talented musician mean?

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    The only approach I know of is trying to find your own voice. YMMV
    Transcription is a great way to find your own voice. Which might seem paradoxical…

    but you choose what to transcribe and what connects with you is going to be different for everyone. By finding the musical ideas and sounds that interest you, you find out about yourself in a very natural way.

    it’s also excellent training for the improvisation muscles.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
    Is it a “given” that transcribing will make you a better improviser? I never drank that coolaid myself.
    Wow

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    Would this be something like starting the lick on subsequent notes of the base arpeggio, but keeping the relative intervals the same? For example, say the lick was chromatic enclosure around the 3rd of the chord followed by a chromatic enclosure around the 5th—are you suggesting something like cycling through the entire scale or arpeggio repeating the same pattern: chromatic enclosure around a chord tone, then chromatic enclosure around the next chord tone?
    Sure, why not? The more ideas you have to do this the better. It’s limited only by your imagination and the nice thing is it’s good ear training as well, especially if you change just one thing at a time.

    Personally , I like rhythmic variation a lot - add in notes, take away notes, start on different beats and upbeats. Neighbour tones usually live on upbeats, chord tones more often on downbeats, but you can get interesting ‘turning the beat around’ effects if you reverse these norms. Experiment and see what you find.

    not everything will sound good, but some things will and they can end up in your bag.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
    Is it a “given” that transcribing will make you a better improviser? I never drank that coolaid myself.
    depends what you mean by transcription. Probably another example of the music edu industrial complex getting hold of something and needlessly codifying into a THING THAT EVERYONE MUST DO.

    some people mean just writing down solos like at music school

    other people mean working music out by ear. I tend to go with the latter.

    sometimes what gets lost is why we do a thing…presumably a good improviser can translate the sounds in their head into music and a possesses an intuitive command of musical materials they use. What I can say is that Ear-learning appear to be a good pathway towards that developing that skill.

    Barry Harris never mentioned transcription when I was in his class, but it was two hours of intense ear learning every workshop. (It was also clear that he knew all the Parker and Bud stuff inside out, so he must have learned it by ear.) Peter Bernstein said he’d only transcribed one solo for school, and everything else he’d done were just licks and lines (and no doubt lots of tunes) that he liked.

    I’m a big fan of learning repertoire by ear, I think it’s the only available and reliable way to do it for a lot of stuff (you’ll make mistakes but at least they won’t be Aebersolds mistakes). solos are perhaps less vital, but certainly fun to do if you get the bug.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    I've been doing transcribing but I haven't seen any payoff in my improvisations.

    Basically, I just transcribe stuff and hope I absorb things by osmosis.

    What are some suggestions for getting more out of transcribing?

    Do you all isolate specific phrases and practice them through all keys?
    There are no short cuts, the more you transcribe the more your gonna be able to play what you hear, which eventually will help you play what you hear in your head and express yourself. Just keep doing it. Take phrases, Change them, take them through all the keys, apply them to different scenarios. It doesn’t matter if you’re not seeing results right away. You are training your brain to be able to use the things you’ve learned when you improvise and Its going to take time. Enjoy the process and remember its about being in the moment in the music.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Transcription is a great way to find your own voice. Which might seem paradoxical…

    but you choose what to transcribe and what connects with you is going to be different for everyone. By finding the musical ideas and sounds that interest you, you find out about yourself in a very natural way.

    it’s also excellent training for the improvisation muscles.
    This is true!

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    depends what you mean by transcription. Probably another example of the music edu industrial complex getting hold of something and needlessly codifying into a THING THAT EVERYONE MUST DO.

    some people mean just writing down solos like at music school

    other people mean working music out by ear. I tend to go with the latter.

    sometimes what gets lost is why we do a thing…presumably a good improviser can translate the sounds in their head into music and a possesses an intuitive command of musical materials they use. What I can say is that Ear-learning appear to be a good pathway towards that developing that skill.

    Barry Harris never mentioned transcription when I was in his class, but it was two hours of intense ear learning every workshop. (It was also clear that he knew all the Parker and Bud stuff inside out, so he must have learned it by ear.) Peter Bernstein said he’d only transcribed one solo for school, and everything else he’d done were just licks and lines (and no doubt lots of tunes) that he liked.

    I’m a big fan of learning repertoire by ear, I think it’s the only available and reliable way to do it for a lot of stuff (you’ll make mistakes but at least they won’t be Aebersolds mistakes). solos are perhaps less vital, but certainly fun to do if you get the bug.
    Another great guitarist, John Scofield, still transcribes short melodies, but not all solos.
    Others also claim that you can learn real jazz phrasing from the copied whole solo.

  23. #22

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    Gary Barton,Jesse van Ruller-I don't think they're in favor of transcribing.
    I think I read about it somewhere.
    Jesse -I think he studied the one solo of Pat Martino - Just Friends - that's it.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    Another great guitarist, John Scofield, still transcribes short melodies, but not all solos.
    Others also claim that you can learn real jazz phrasing from the copied whole solo.
    i think Scott Henderson said ‘never transcribe a line that’s longer than seven notes’ the idea being that small units are easiest to combine in improvisation.

    Emily Remler seemed a bit doubtful about the value of transcribing whole solos (and she went to Berklee haha)

    Otoh Richie Hart has transcribed hundreds of Wes solos. Wes himself was famous for knowing all the Charlie Christian solos. This is funny because Wes sounded nothing like Charlie Christian. You would be hard pressed to find a more original and individual guitarist, in fact.

    i think it depends on whether you are a habit person or a goals person. I’m more of the former. I like a routine, and working out a line or two or a tune everyday is easier for me to commit to than 128 bars of one solo over a longer period.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    Gary Barton,Jesse van Ruller-I don't think they're in favor of transcribing.
    I think I read about it somewhere.
    Jesse -I think he studied the one solo of Pat Martino - Just Friends - that's it.
    yeah me too

    what complicates the whole discussion is that people use different definitions of transcription. For some people it means any ear learning at all including learning repertoire, for others it means learning solos and copping licks etc, for others it means writing down solos for analysis and study.

    For me the first case appears to be a universal along jazz players, but the second may not work for everyone.

    If you want to tell me Burton and Ruller haven’t worked solos, fine. i believe it.

    If you want to tell me they haven’t learned an absolute ton of music by ear over the years, I think I’d have to question that because I don’t know how you could be a professional jazz musician and not learn a lot of tunes from recordings even today. Plus the real book wasn’t a thing when Burton was playing with Getz lol. Doesn’t Burton have legendarily amazing ears anyway?

    Both players can do what is necessary to be a great jazz player, which includes hearing what’s happening in the music in the moment and play what they hear effortlessly. How you get there is not so important ultimately, but I think learning music by ear is a great way to cultivate those skills.

    Transcription is a very complete practice activity. It’s easy to see why it is so often recommended
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 07-31-2022 at 04:30 PM.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    depends what you mean by transcription. Probably another example of the music edu industrial complex getting hold of something and needlessly codifying into a THING THAT EVERYONE MUST DO.

    some people mean just writing down solos like at music school

    other people mean working music out by ear. I tend to go with the latter.

    sometimes what gets lost is why we do a thing…presumably a good improviser can translate the sounds in their head into music and a possesses an intuitive command of musical materials they use. What I can say is that Ear-learning appear to be a good pathway towards that developing that skill.

    Barry Harris never mentioned transcription when I was in his class, but it was two hours of intense ear learning every workshop. (It was also clear that he knew all the Parker and Bud stuff inside out, so he must have learned it by ear.) Peter Bernstein said he’d only transcribed one solo for school, and everything else he’d done were just licks and lines (and no doubt lots of tunes) that he liked.

    I’m a big fan of learning repertoire by ear, I think it’s the only available and reliable way to do it for a lot of stuff (you’ll make mistakes but at least they won’t be Aebersolds mistakes). solos are perhaps less vital, but certainly fun to do if you get the bug.
    THANK YOU for bring some much needed nuance to this often polarizing topic!