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Where do “the blues” come from? It’s not a 12 bar form, or 1-4-5 or a beat or a key. It’s not about losing one’s love, dog, job or truck. It’s not dance music or boogie. It doesn’t make you feel good. It’s what? Just “a feeling” is all…
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07-27-2022 11:11 AM
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My perspective is that "the blues" is a language. By that I mean to say that blues music contains linguistic elements (licks, riffs etc) that we combine into phrases and "sentences." I think people tend to try to conform blues to European conventions, but it doesn't really exist in that context. Most notably, perhaps, are the 7th chords that don't "move" or transition to other chords as would be typical of other styles. As with any style, there are conventions (rhythmic, tonal and "melodic") that are foundational to blues, BTW I put "melodic" in quotes because blues isn't really "melodic" music, at least in the same sense as jazz standards as an example.
Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
To say the blues "is a feeling" is true, but then, as Leroi Jones (Amiri Baraka) has said, the feeling precedes the musical expression. I think the single element unique to blues is the third, which I would describe as flatted with an upward inflection. So, depending on the context, the third can be minor or major against a 7th chord. There is an infinite range of tonalities between those two points, hence an infinite range of expression.
Jazz adopted the linguistic elements of blues and superimposed them on top of European structures, like the Great American Songbook. Even in that context we can derive more depth of expression from Lee Morgan, for example, than Shorty Rogers, a great player in his own right. As an aside, I describe what was known as West Coast Jazz as jazz without the blues, Art Pepper and Chet Baker notwithstanding. Gerry Mulligan is a great player but he's not bluesy. In fact, Dizzy Gillespie in his book To Be, Or Not, To Bop noted that he wasn't really a bluesy player, especially compared to Charlie Parker.
I'd say I'm a passable jazz player with the confines of my own limitations. What little I have going for me is that I'm fluent in blues. So what I lack in harmonic complexity (much) I can offset with a bluesy tonality and approach. So it's like meat loaf, mashed potatoes and gravy – familiar, basic and (hopefully) satisfying. Wes, Kenny Burrell, Grant Green and Pat Martino (!!!) were all exceptional blues players. John McLaughlin, as an example among many, not really.
The bottom line for me is that, as with any language, those who are fluent can discern between those who speak "correctly" and those who talk right. My two cents FWIW.
As for the OP, I would respectfully suggest that you reconsider your assertion "It’s not dance music or boogie. It doesn’t make you feel good." Those of us who grew up during the rock 'n' roll era (do guitarists ever grow up?) would suggest that you reflect on Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard ad infinitum and tell me that wasn't dance music, or blues either for that matter. As for "it's not boogie" maybe listen to Magic Sam first, then say that:
And as for blues "doesn't make you feel good" I had the opportunity to play blues festivals all over the country with a Grammy Award winning artist, including rocking the house as headliners in front of 20,000+ people at the Chicago Blues Festival. I could be mistaken, but from what I could see they were enjoying themselves.
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The origins of blues comes from black musicians in the countryside playing acoustic instruments at non-church entertainment situations. I.e. hanging out, dancing, drinking etc. Songs covered non-church topics like love, sex, murder, hard life, satire and even criticism of the church.
As a contrast, church music was about sacred topics, and if you weren’t in church on your spare time you were probably drinking or gambling, listening to that “other music”. Hence the blues was the devil’s music.
The blues evolved, as do all styles, through the hands of the practitioners. Playing blues means having a dialogue with one or more giants who invented language without education, youtube, books etc.
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Thanks for the thoughtful replies. Just to clarify my point a little bit, I was saying blues isn’t locked into any of the traits we ascribe to it, like a certain beat or 12 bar form etc. it certainly “can” be danceable and it “can” lift the spirits but it doesn’t have to have any of those specifics to still be the essence of the blues. My own performance of the blues is pretty far from its origins, and perhaps some may feel it’s not blues at all, but it’s what’s inside of me-all blues and nothing but the blues- -as I’m feeling.
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Yea Mark as always I enjoy the freedom in your playing. Was great, thanks.
Obviously there are many forms of the Blues. I've also played lots of festivals, more in the direction of jazz, but not only. (still do).
I also perform with the Black community in church and on stage etc... (at dives etc...) personally it's the same thing just a different hat and maybe a little more polite.
Where I'm going is the freedom thing... enough said.
And yes this forum is very vanilla etc... but it is a Jazz forum. Not a Blues Forum. There is a difference with the material being performed and the style of performance. Some performers are just better at implying the characteristics of Blues than others. Jazz players definitely have expanded what are Blue Notes and where they come from and imply...(musically) that's what I tend to call the vanilla thing. Not good or bad... but it's there whether one hears or feels it.
I would tend to believe the rhythmic aspects of performance are more of what we feel... but that's probable just my hangups...LOL. Anyway Mark again thanks and sorry for too much BS. Your one of the few who actually post MUSIC on this forum.
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I have been musically employed for just over 60 yrs.Toured with some famous groups. My "blues employers insist I am a "jazz" player. My Jazz employers say i am a blues player. Conclusion...I have no idea what blues or jazz is... These people keep hiring me... mickmac
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Irony.
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The way I see it, blues has multiple complementary meanings
- An emotion ("the blues", sadness, melancholy, depression, frustration)
- A collection of song forms that involve a journey from I7 to IV7 and back (or sometimes just the I7) originating in African American folk-music traditions
- A collection of microtonal vocal effects adapted to instruments (i.e., the blue notes) originating in African American folk-music traditions
- A genre of music (with a bunch of sub-genres), that heavily emphasizes the blues song forms and microtonalities; a secular counterpart to African-American religious music
- Any music played by a blues musician (in the genre sense), even if it doesn't include the obvious blues attributes and subject matter (e.g., Hot Tamales by Robert Johnson, Darlin' You Know I Love You by BB King)
- Adaptations and evocations of various combinations of the above features to other genres and approaches (e.g., "jazz blues" forms, Mark K's post)
- Music with a mood or feeling that somehow manages to be the blues despite not obviously being any of the above
- There's also music that somehow manages to encompass much of the above and not be blues (Pat Boone).
I guess that's all kind of a pedantic way of saying the blues is a feeling.
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The Blues takes many forms, but the foundation does have something a bit different from other forms; the standard plain blues is a special kind of progression formula where the harmonic rhythm periodically and progressively doubles:
I I I I IV IV I I V IV I V
each of these chords take the same time span
I I I I - IV IV I I - V IV I V
each of these three sections take the same time span
look at it like this:
I I I I
-
IV IV
I I
-
V
IV
I
V
then as
4
-
2
2
-
1
1
1
1
---
12
by expansion and increased resolution (change in time signature)
the same progression could have been:
I I I I I I I I
IV IV IV IV I I I I
V V IV IV I I V V
or
8
-
4
4
-
2
2
2
2
---
24
however now the end of the last line may extend the "folding" of the harmonic rhythm:
I I I I I I I I
IV IV IV IV I I I I
V V IV IV I IV I V
so now we have:
8
-
4
4
-
2
2
1
1
1
1
---
24
we can do it again:
I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I
IV IV IV IV IV IV IV IV I I I I I I I I
V V V V IV IV IV IV I I VI VI ii bVI V bII
16
-
8
8
-
4
4
2
2
1
1
1
1
---
48
If you are familiar with Zeno's paradox (a progression of segments each half the one before) or fractals (structures that are self similar at different size scales), you will notice that the primal Blues takes advantage of these "folding" concepts. The increasing pace of the harmonic rhythm through the form provides intensity... in the sense that the whole form is really a turnaround.
Of course there is a musical and mechanical limit to this "folding" sequence, but there are endless variations that introduce this folding of the form early or throughout, or depart from the folding placement.
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I'd say it's all those things. Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
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Authoritive answer to me (but undoubtedly not the only one):
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Yea RJVB... thanks, I hinted at it, but just couldn't open the door.
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thanks! That was awesome! Originally Posted by RJVB
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Essentially the same message (and feeling) driving gospel music in thousands of churches on Sunday mornings. Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
AKA
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Years ago, I was at a David "Honeyboy" Edwards concert. The man was with Robert Johnson the night he died, and had also played with Charley Patton, Tommy Johnson, so yeah, he'd been around.
There was a Q&A at the end, and someone asked him, "what does the blues mean to you?" Oh, this will be good, I thought. Surely, nobody left on the planet is more qualified to answer this question.
"Well...'' it was pretty hard to make out what he was saying, since he was well over 90 at that point. But it was something like, "it was a music that has its roots in the musical traditions of both enslaved cotton workers and the black church, which eventually made it's way to Mississippi where guitarists and singers would play in dances and juke joints, beginning to formalize some of the structures..." It was like something out of a textbook, or a Wikipedia summary.
At the time, I was kind of disappointed. I was hoping for something a little bit more poetic. But later, I was longing for a somewhat Romantic conception, and the problem was really with me. The man had lived a long, LONG life as a working musician, and those were just the facts of his experiences and the music he played. It didn't need to be any more than that for him, and that should be enough for me.
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BB said, "the blues is the truth, happy or sad."
Haven't found a better definition yet.
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Doug has been telling that story for a "while" before being able to record it in a dedicated track but it transpires from just about every single one of his songs. This one is a good example, and should be hilariously recognisable for anyone who's ever been gigging in any form (apologies if you've already seen me post it): Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
He wasn't the first either. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
(Doug played with BB,and BB played at least one of Doug's songs, so it's not surprising to find this kind of agreement.)
You sometimes see Bluegrass referred to as the white man's blues, and I think there's truth in that. While not strictly bluegrass nor blues in form, this one is definitely a blues in spirit for me (at about 10:50 but there's more relevant music in that video):
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That was closer to a typical blues than I expected from you, Mark. Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
. Nice work as always.
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im not a total deviant all the time Originally Posted by charlieparker
That was closer to a typical blues than I expected from you, Mark.. Nice work as always.
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Born of cotton pickers, who had no rights, no vote, no life.
100 years later, it was played by jazz musicians, who had no rights, no vote, but who did their best in spite of their circumstances.
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