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07-08-2022 01:06 PM
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That was insightful, and helpful. The fact it has had no responses (except for this one) can only be because you cover everything so well, no one has any questions!
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LOL... I'm pretty sure it's standard common knowledge for most composers / arrangers... and only for those that have theory hangup disorders. Which does show does up on this forum.
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wtf?...
Originally Posted by reg
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well yeah - if I understand you right, that’s actually kind of why I do videos like this. for people like that, hopefully it opens some doors. I don’t expect arrangers etc to have much interest in a video like this. Originally Posted by Reg
Theory hangup disorder is pretty common
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Cool video, as usual
Not having an encyclopedic knowledge of standards, how common is the nat 6th in minor tunes? ISTM that would influence the flavor of the ii chord. Take Autumn Leaves as a counter example, the min 7 -b in the head is preceded by the bVI (CM7-F#m7-5 in e minor) and the b6 that degree is all throughout the melody. To my ears playing the nat 5th sounds like it’s modulating rather than setting up a closing cadence
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Yea... that was part of my point Christian. Thanks. The other minor detail... try voicing out Billies or any tune that has examples of notes that don't seem to be diatonic to the basic vanilla changes. Even just a counter or harmony line. Generally you'll see that their might be more chords going on.
Then if they become apparent or possible, we start using Chord Patterns etc...which create another level of musical organization, more pieces of the puzzle which lead to expanding what can be heard as almost Diatonic... It seems that your comfortable with BH added chords or notes... there are other methods of expanding harmony to expand note selection. I could go on...BWC
Another details is when you select small sections of space within a Tune and don't use the rest of the tune as part of the source for musical organization or Reference, generally you're missing a lot. I hope you're getting where I'm going... I tend to be short and messy LOL sorry. Reg
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I don’t really understand your chord depictions here but as far as I know Autumn Leaves moves around Aeolian and harm minor. Harmonic minor in classical sense fits the blues walk down as well as the C# made so essential by Miles Davis. As far as I know modulating is when you shift the entire feel out of the original chords, while temporarily shifting to a different scale is more of a variation. Originally Posted by BWV
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BWV... Originally Posted by BWV
There are many.... but even with AL... not many still play it that vanilla. Borrowing from Relative and Parallel sources and Modal interchange have been common practice for the last 40+ years. Analysis of any tune creates a basic reference from which to create and develop... expand performance. When you expand the vanilla changes with Chord Patterns, kind of like many do with typical standard embellishments etc... You can still have the basic level of harmonic analysis or chord movement be implied. How do you explain use of Blue Notes, do you use Blue Chords.
It can be seem complex or Wrong LOL.... but it common practice with many.
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Respectfully...No, Modulating is when the implied Tonal Reference or Target changes. Originally Posted by Eck
I should probable move on, this is Christians thread and I'm already pushing...
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I think we mean the same thing. Originally Posted by Reg
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40? more like over 200 years. Don’t need to explain blue notes harmonically as they are just color. But as a default I would still fall back to harmony that reflects the melody line. I don’t hear the ii min 7 that much in AL, and it sounds a little wonky to me, but on the other hand I like a min 6 chord on the tonic i chord so it’s just a matter of taste Originally Posted by Reg
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Fwiw Pete Bernstein told me off for playing a minor 7th there. (Clang!) Originally Posted by BWV
m7 are quite Wes-y tho
the last phrase of the a section AL uses the ascending melodic minor, so it has a natural 6 (C#) over the B7(9) but as you say it’s been b6/C all the way up to that point. It’s a bit of a pleasant surprise to the ear.
So F#m7 the bar before sort of gives the game away I guess?
The C chord was not present in the original changes of course, so I’d be interested to know what the original song sheet had.Last edited by Christian Miller; 07-26-2022 at 04:40 PM.
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I taught AL to a student many years ago who mentioned that his mother had an old version of the sheet music. He turned up the next week with a first edition 1947 copy! As you mention, no IV chord in the 'A' section and the F#m7b5 is notated as Am6 (pretty common in that period - Monk did the same). The bridge has no ii chord at all (B7-Em-D7-G).
Regarding the 6th degree of the scale, the final cadence ("when autumn leaves start to fall") has an an interesting harmony. Most people play F#m7b5-B7-Em or following Wynton Kelly's example, a bVI dominant to V, C7-B7-Em. The original has A/C#-Am/C-B7-Em.Last edited by PMB; 07-27-2022 at 12:55 AM.
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Nice! Originally Posted by PMB
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Curious about how much do you all think about playing a min 6 on the 4th scale degree as different than playing a root position min7-5 on the second?
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More than I'd like. Old habits.... Originally Posted by BWV
So, aside from these two chords being inversions of each other, it's about the middle voice leading. There's other chords from the same family - the Vsus(b9) has the same voice leading and does the same job, too, of being a predominant suspension. This goes back to the baroque era and has its roots in renaissance polyphony.
None of these three were originally a chord in its own right at all, if you like but rather a specific type of ornamentation of the V chord, and this of course is how Barry Harris taught them. (Of course everything becomes a chord in its own right given enough time.)
To realise this you need to look at the middle voices first. Actually quite often, because that's when apparently diverse chord progressions are revealed to be the same basic thing.
- Problem with chord symbols is we always look at the root first (and it's not always clear what the root is)
- Problem with figured bass is we always look at the bass first (and this creates a lot of ways of writing down the same basic voice leading)
in this case, the bass and the roots of the chords with this function are subject to quite a bit of variation while the middle voices do the same sort of thing (I'm talking mostly about classical/baroque counterpoint here, but this is also true for quite a bit of jazz.)
In the case of IVm6 v IIm7b5 it shows what we label as the 'root' is a sometimes matter of convenience.
Modern jazz theory thinks IIm7b5 not IVm6, for instance because its most common use is II V I and it constructs basic chords in stacks of thirds on a root.
But Fm6 is how Barry Harris, Monk etc viewed it.
I personally prefer IVm6 (or bVII7) because it's a chord I have more to play on. Ultimately we shouldn't be thinking too much about chords, I guess.Last edited by Christian Miller; 07-27-2022 at 05:22 AM.
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Originally Posted by BWV
Well, for Dm7b5, Fm6 and Bb9 (rootless), I used to conceive the Dm7b5 pitch group. So if an Fm6 came along, I'd convert it to Dm7b5 by calculating down a 6th. If a G9 came along, I would convert to Dm7b5 by calculating up a 3rd. And for E7alt, I would convert down a tone to Dm7b5, or down a b5th to Bb9 etc...
Of course, I thought I was being clever by repurposing the same ol' pitch group for multiple uses, thinking I was saving time. But no, all that calculating on the fly was giving me much grief, so I decided I'd learn each inversion of said notes in 5 positions, and in each position, start on F for Fm6, D for Dm7b5, the "missing" Bb for Bb9, and the "missing" E for E7alt. It's more work, and confusing at first, but the payoff for me was being able to produce the right notes with less "calculation" time. Obviously I don't play ideas starting on the starting note! But I visualise the pattern around the starting note, and play notes from the associated pattern..
I just shedded a piece (like C minor Blues) that contained all the food groups (m6, m7b5, dom7, alt dom7 etc) in 5 positions until the fingerboard started to "light up" where I needed it to.
Anyway, that's how I ended up making the differentiation between when to view it as m6, vs m7b5 etc...Last edited by princeplanet; 07-27-2022 at 10:20 PM.
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Personally if Min6th is notated..... A nat 6th is implied unless notated other wise. And when min7b5 is notated a b6 is implied. Prince would dig seeing an example of the organizational approach described above... seems very muddy and in a dim. way. No bad or wrong...
I tend to hear Chord patterns... so if Min6 chord is the Reference or the I-6 chord... what would be possible turnarounds. ex.... in Gmin....
G-6 E-7b5 A-7 D7#9b13
G-69 Eb9 A-11 Ab13#11
G-69 Bb13 A-9 Ab13 etc...
What would be the chord pattern for the G-6 chord. like in Prince's Min. Blues.
BWV... some people don't call or spell Blue notes as color, they can and with many players have harmonic implications. Which have chords, scales, arppegios etc... Implied... they can be more than embellishments. Not saying your wrong.... but that view is not the only..."right".
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Note - in apparent contradiction to what I said earlier, different inversions do also sound different. A IIm7b5 does not really sound like a IVm6 or a Vsus4. A third inversion dominant chord does have a strong lydian character quite unlike the root position. So these are distinctions that I feel the 18th century figured bass approach and modern CST both recognise which functional analysis and theoretical root (Rameau) does not.
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Not sure I can explain it any better, besides, no one else is ever gonna wanna work on things the way I tend do, all muddy and dim like ... Originally Posted by Reg
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I don't have a recommendation for others, but this might be food for thought.
Cm6 D7susb9 Ebmaj7#5 F7#11 G7b13 Am7b5 Balt are all contained within C melodic minor. Per Mark Levine, they're all the same chord.
So, one approach to Cm6=Am7b5=rootless F9 is to think about C melodic minor scale. I won't say that this will be the best thing to do in every harmonic situation, but it will get you close and you can always adjust things by ear if they don't sound right. In practice, I know the chord tones of each and I think of the melodic minor scale as something like a tonal center. So, it's chord tones and, as a background, the scale.
But, if I were to start over from the beginning, I'd think about doing it Reg's way, thinking about chord patterns and usage. I did not get to where I am, for better or worse, with a well-organized approach.
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Hey Prince... I'm not trying to knock... I just see and hear the chords you posted as not that related. Are they spelled correct?
I'll go through again... I do get that you put in the time and are very organized. And the Dim. was Diminished... right. I was trying to find the organizational connections. I probable missed something. It's just easy to hear, no work LOL. I'm lazy.
So my gigs the last few days ... Tunes that were Minor , I don't remember them all and no originals...
Close your eyes
Blue Bossa... in Gene Harris style
Liberated Brother... and other Silver tunes...
Birks Works
4 on 6
Jeanine
I don't think I really keep it that straight.... on any of them. I mean obviously during the head melody needs harmonic and rhythmic support... but after that we're off and running and the last thing I want to do is go vanilla.
I'll try and make some examples...I have BB gigs tonight and tomorrow, maybe tomorrow Morning. I guess it's only fair... I asked Prince, so I need to cover...
Sorry Christian
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Woops, I typed Dm7b9 instead of Dm7b5... is that what you mean? Anyway, I edited it to put it right. Originally Posted by Reg
As for the rest of the spellings / relationships, just standard stuff - ie : Dm7b5 = Fm6 = Bb9 = E7b9b13. Again, if I want Bb9, I don't convert to Dm7b5 by thinking of where my "d" is to see the pattern, instead I want to see the pattern around "Bb" - even if there's no Bb in the arp. Ditto for E7alt. Just how I like to see it, ain't no big deal...
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