The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51
    I would agree that the best players are not always good teachers, but not the other way around. The best teachers are those who not only can, but have done it themselves and are good at it. If you haven't been there, done that, yourself, it's very hard to be able to teach that subject.

    I have had so MANY uni "teachers" without a clue about the real world, and as a result, their courses are always mediocre. I remember doing a few subjects with a friend who had completed an apprenticeship and was now doing his engineering degree. So many times he made fools of the academics that had no real experience.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Woody Allen said (in Annie Hall) "Those who can't do teach. Those who can't teach teach gym"

    Today he would add: "Those who can't teach gym teach jazz guitar (or perhaps clarinet) on the internet."
    Last edited by John A.; 06-23-2022 at 11:37 AM.

  4. #53

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    A very talented player can't really teach a mediocre student. Because they didn't have the same struggle.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    A very talented player can't really teach a mediocre student. Because they didn't have the same struggle.
    I've seen a very talented player make a 'mediocre' student into an exceptional one, not by addressing the pressing questions of the student, but rather by leading them to answer their own questions through the insight that comes from experience.
    A talented player can become an effective teacher if they use their time and personal growth to form a self defined artistic identity. This process can be shared with a student.
    Personally, I am wary of this trend among music schools to hire young talented and critically acknowledged players to become faculty without serious years on the road. But then again, music schools value that prestige more than any inherent shaping of the young inquiring mind.

  6. #55

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    Yea... some interesting comments. While I was at Berklee, I sat in at gigs with faculty all the time. Point is some students are just what they are.

    I watch lots of light bulb moments at gigs... with trial and error or classical style players when musical jazz concepts are verbally explained with live examples in real time at the speed of jazz.

    And I tend to agree with Jimmy about not babysitting students.... sink or swim does work, you just need to know the right time for the deep end. And be able to recognize what walls students are hitting. Which for 99% of players is... technical skills. Man I sound like a broken record.

    I posted above the somewhat typical approach of learning how to create and develop different improv approaches.
    How to play the same tune and have different results.

    I totally disagree with the... keep pounding your same shit against the wall and eventually you'll get through.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    I've seen a very talented player make a 'mediocre' student into an exceptional one..
    I really meant real talent not just a regular awesome player. Some can progress 10x times than the normal speed. A very few even faster.
    If one of those talents would be being good at teaching anyone (not just the equally talented) also - that'd be a hyper-jackpot. Possible, but so damn rare.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    I've seen a very talented player make a 'mediocre' student into an exceptional one, not by addressing the pressing questions of the student, but rather by leading them to answer their own questions through the insight that comes from experience.
    A talented player can become an effective teacher if they use their time and personal growth to form a self defined artistic identity. This process can be shared with a student.
    Personally, I am wary of this trend among music schools to hire young talented and critically acknowledged players to become faculty without serious years on the road. But then again, music schools value that prestige more than any inherent shaping of the young inquiring mind.
    such a great post

  9. #58

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    Teach = impart knowledge, which implies that the students are getting it. If they aren't, you aren't teaching, rather, attempting to teach, or maybe not even that: there are plenty of "saboteurs" in the profession.
    The funniest thing Woody Allen said in a movie was to his date as they were preparing to get into bed and he popped into the bathroom saying "don't start without me". JMO

  10. #59

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    I did a bit of research into this over my masters and one theme that comes up again and again in the ethnographies and case studies of jazz education is this sort of weird tension between the experienced players on faculty and the institution. The apprenticeship is still mediated - often quite self consciously- - through the colleges somewhat but this seems to come into conflict with the ‘higher ups.’

    i suppose this is common in higher edu to some extent

  11. #60

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    Which seems to go where most go.... $

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.

    Today he would add: "Those who can't teach gym teach jazz guitar (or perhaps clarinet) on the internet."
    Wow, none of us would be having this discussion here had it not been for one internet jazz guitar teacher.....

    Ray

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4zz
    I am finding it hard to come up with new and interesting improvisations. This occurred to me while attempting the latest virtual jam song here. I set up the song's backing track and learnt the head, but as soon as I start to improvise, the same old sounds come out.

    gestions for areas to concentrate on in my reading and practice that may help.
    It's music ! the answer is not in books !

    Some of my Fav. guitarists had very different approaches:

    Pat Martino..had a system and lots of theory but his solos sounded pretty much the same for the last 30 years of his career.....

    George Benson, had no standard music education (by his own admittance) but played all the blues and early jazz masters licks and then turned them around and the man could SING..invaluable asset even if it's only in your inner voice or mind....

    Joe Pass , he could mix it all up......Jazz, Blues pop, mor, classical, you name it he would just throw it all in there, whatever he thought of, that's what came out and then some....(BTW listening to Oscar P. = endless stream of ideas)


    Jim Hall.....ahhh! that's way more complex.... think Bach ! C Miller has a nice post on the concept....

    In the end it's music and has to be "musical"....Play anything and everything like/from any instrumentalist and, with many other musicians!!!....one note can steer you sooooo far ...

    When improvising (as with many things in life) in the end, it comes down to "
    " !

    Cheers

    Ray
    Last edited by RayS; 06-24-2022 at 09:19 PM.

  14. #63

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    I suggest learning some classic solos (or pieces of solos) that you admire from records. Nothing too fast or difficult. You’re just gathering ideas. Get out of your own head. Over time you can pick out phrases, modify them to your liking and make them into your own style.

    It’s not about copying anyone’s solos. It’s about tapping into the tradition. It’s the classic approach to learning improvisation. Good luck.

  15. #64

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    I have got to add something that was essential for my vision and my never ending expanding awareness of things to practice: Going out and seeing live music; good music, even music that isn't fully cooked but has integrity.
    If you live somewhere that has live improvisational music (yeah, you can call it jazz), see it as much as you can. I am god blessed to live in a town where every Monday night there's a double bill of two extraordinary tenor players back to back. It's just a given that I'm there when I can be.
    Take aways:
    A humbling acceptance of what's possible; knowing how easy and natural it can be by loving playing.
    Boundless examples of solutions to your questions (ex: How do I begin a phrase so I'm not playing a cliche from the start? Every phrase from a master on any given night will give you answers you can use...off the beat, starting with 2 measures of rest while the soloist adjusts a mouthpiece...from an unexpected interval...with an idea the last phrase ended with...with a quote...and more).
    Go to a gig with a notebook of questions, take notes.
    Here's the gold ring on the carousel: Hang with the artist before or after and don't be shy about asking a question. I asked Jerry Bergonzi "What are the considerations that shape what you're going to play next?" and he said "Shape and direction, I'm thinking 'do I go up? Do I contrast? Do I create a sequence? Do I add to or change the shape that preceeded? It's about the shapes." Man, that sure got me out of thinking with my hands and my head!
    Even lessons like Every human has an off day but an artist is never stopped by that, there is always something profound to be created by having strategies of construction.

    What gets me is I live in a town with several very decent music schools, and thousands of kids who claim to want to learn how to play, and yet there are nights when there are but a handful of people who come out to "learn" a master class of information and shared experience.
    One gig with good players, your phone, that red record button...priceless.
    'can't recommend it highly enough.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    I totally disagree with the... keep pounding your same shit against the wall and eventually you'll get through.
    It *can* work, but only if you take good, productive breaks doing something else (even if it's pounding your head or another body part on a different wall ). Works for learning to play a difficult score but I see no reason why it wouldn't work for improvisation.

    Those light bulb moments can also come in a different form: "I'm just not ready for this". Had one of those yesterday

    Quote Originally Posted by RayS
    When improvising (as with many things in life) in the end, it comes down to "
    " !
    Reminds me of what's probably the best written depiction of a sword fight:
    Quote Originally Posted by A. Heinlein, Glory Road

    ...
    swordplay is an odd thing; you don’t really use your mind, it is much too fast for that. Your wrist thinks and tells your feet and body what to do, bypassing your brain–any thinking you do is for later, stored instructions, like a programmed computer.
    ...
    He pinked me again, in the kneecap, hurting like fire and slowing me. Despite his wounds, much worse than mine, I knew I couldn’t go on much longer. We settled down to grim work.

    There is a riposte in seconde, desperately dangerous but brilliant–if you bring it off. It had won me several matches in 6pee with nothing at stake but a score. It starts from sixte; first your opponent counters. Instead of parrying to carte, you press and bind, sliding all the way down and around his blade and corkscrewing in till your point finds flesh. Or you can beat, counter, and bind, starting from sixte, thus setting it off yourself.

    Its shortcoming is that, unless it is done perfectly, it is too late for parry and riposte; you run your own chest against his point.

    I didn’t try to initiate it, not against this swordsman; I just thought about it.

    We continued to fence, perfectly each of us. Then he stepped back slightly while countering and barely
    skidded in his own blood.

    My wrist took charge; I corkscrewed in with a perfect bind to seconde–and my blade went through his body. He looked surprised, brought his bell up in salute, and crumpled at the knees as the grip fell from his hand. I had to move forward with my blade as he fell, then started to pull it out of him.

  17. #66

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    There is a book by Bert Ligon called "Connecting Chords With Linear Harmony". In it, he describes and teaches the development of jazz-typical melodic material using three simple "outlines". These outlines are the quintessence of hundreds of transcribed solos that he and his students have written down over the years. He claims that 80 or so percent of what the masters play is derived from these 3 outlines. Who am I to argue?

    He then discusses the various "devices" as he calls them, how to vary these three outlines (chromatic approach, rhythmic variation, etc.) and start playing meaningful Jazz solos.

    If you want, you can also buy the "big solution" right away, namely his book "Comprehensive Technique for Jazz Musicians", there the content of the first mentioned book is almost completely included in it, but many other things.

    I am sure that after working through one of these volumes you'll find your problems with your solos mostly solved.

    (But you'll have others, but that's life )


    Comprehensive Technique for Jazz Musicians – 2nd Edition - For All Instruments - Jazz Book | Hal Leonard Online


    Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony - Jazz Book | Hal Leonard Online

  18. #67

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    "Improvisational variety comes from your musical imagination." Rsilver


    Hi, R,
    In a nutshell!
    Marinero

  19. #68

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    Are we talking about performance or practice. I tend to divide the two.

    Working on Technical performance skills and then technical practice skills.

    Personally I want my performances to be live, created during the performance. I remembers at a gig.. a few weeks ago a really good sax player, a pro was sitting in, (by pro I mean, he was working musician, could read, had ears and technical skills), anyway after a few tunes he said... wow you guys change tunes while your playing them. You really don't know where the music is going to go. I smiled and said how much I loved his playing etc...

    How many ways can you play a blues.... how would you go about playing a blues differently.

    As DonEsteban said... get Bert Ligon's "Connecting Chords With Linear Harmony".

    Which boils down to Harmonic chord connecting principles for creating Melodic development.
    Using harmonic chord tone targets. Modified Voice leading and how to fill in the space between and around with musical organization. Which will get you to point "0"... vanilla. But if your not there... it will work.

    The problem is most don't have the musical understandings and technical skills.... to really use the book.

  20. #69

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    We play everything we've learned before ...

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg

    The problem is most don't have the musical understandings and technical skills.... to really use the book.
    It's that spiral for which there are no shortcuts: Playing (doing) with the infatuation of novelty. Fascination with novelty. Assimilation and proficiency. Boredom and search for expansion. Becoming aware of the next plateau. Frustration with the task. Informed persistence. Repeat from step one.

    Teachers with a stock agenda can often push steps onto a student before they have the firm foundation to accept it, or know why to ask for it. There's a lot of impatience in learning to play something as multi layered as improvisational music and the sooner a student learns the patience to love the evolving process, the sooner they'll learn the personal investment and use it wisely.
    There's no cheating this spiral.
    Yeah Reg, I'm sure you know this but there were a LOT of kids who graduate places like Berklee who aced all their proficiencies but have no idea how to play something that reflects personality. There's no love for the music and a lot of obigatory noodling when soloing, no hint as to the craft and art of composing a piece of music in real time.
    That's why so many graduates are unprepared to approach the bandstand no less stand on their own to make it through a night. But CVS and Duncans is eternally grateful for the influx into their workforce so it's not a loss.

  22. #71

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    LOL that was funny... Jimmy.

    So one can either play or one can't. And that is determined by a "quality" of what they play. And determining what that quality is.... or if it has quality, is like a jazz police thing.

    Yea... I don't know man.

    Getting to that point of being able to play can be accomplished easily through getting one's technical skills together. You may not have anything (with quality status) to say, but at least you'll be able to say something. As compared to the... I can hear ya man, I loved what you were trying to play.

    I'm just having fun.... it's all going on all the time and we learn to recognize different conversations and where they can go. ( what we play or what someone else plays... has musical implications. How we use those References and create Relationships and develop them... together... is part of performing in a jazz style.)

    I still play some of my ideas from the 60's and 70's... but with different musical relationship... and find totally new results. Some great... some not so good.

    It does seem that jazz is past the half way mark to becoming a classical style monetary tradition.

  23. #72

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    I played my best solo when just learned the pentatonic scale 2 days before.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    I played my best solo when just learned the pentatonic scale 2 days before.
    me too!

    funny that

    unless…..

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    It's that spiral for which there are no shortcuts: Playing (doing) with the infatuation of novelty. Fascination with novelty. Assimilation and proficiency. Boredom and search for expansion. Becoming aware of the next plateau. Frustration with the task. Informed persistence. Repeat from step one.

    Teachers with a stock agenda can often push steps onto a student before they have the firm foundation to accept it, or know why to ask for it. There's a lot of impatience in learning to play something as multi layered as improvisational music and the sooner a student learns the patience to love the evolving process, the sooner they'll learn the personal investment and use it wisely.
    There's no cheating this spiral.
    Yeah Reg, I'm sure you know this but there were a LOT of kids who graduate places like Berklee who aced all their proficiencies but have no idea how to play something that reflects personality. There's no love for the music and a lot of obigatory noodling when soloing, no hint as to the craft and art of composing a piece of music in real time.
    That's why so many graduates are unprepared to approach the bandstand no less stand on their own to make it through a night. But CVS and Duncans is eternally grateful for the influx into their workforce so it's not a loss.
    well it’s a cliche isn’t it - how well would a Monk do in the current jazz environment?

    But would a personality like Monk, or Bird, or Miles be drawn towards jazz these days? I doubt it.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by emanresu
    I played my best solo when just learned the pentatonic scale 2 days before.
    You must be very talented ... :-)