The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I am finding it hard to come up with new and interesting improvisations. This occurred to me while attempting the latest virtual jam song here. I set up the song's backing track and learnt the head, but as soon as I start to improvise, the same old sounds come out.

    It's a bit disheartening. More practice just seems to find me reinforcing the same improvisation "habits". I can follow the scale that fits over the chords, or just stick close to a pentatonic that fits, and try to add some interesting extra notes, but still I end up targetting the same old notes in the same old way.

    Should I concentrate on learning lot's of licks so I have more ammunition when trying to do something new? I have avoided learning too many licks by rote, wanting to understand the music and harmonies better and use that when playing. Then there are arpeggios. Easy to fit over chords, but in fact I find them even more limited in the variety of sounds I can get, although I admit some examples I have heard others play sound good.

    Looking for some suggestions for areas to concentrate on in my reading and practice that may help.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Play melodies of songs, then improvise around them. Derive some melodic motifs from them and improvise using them. Do some transcribing of stuff you feel you're lacking. Or just spend time playing rhythm, it's bound to change your soloing too.

  4. #3

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    Learn a few licks, it won't hurt you. Call it "ear training" if you have to. The only people who think it's a cop out are bedroom players on internet forums. Nobody in a live setting is going to care, unless you regurgitate complete solos. But even then, if you played some Tal Farlow solo note for note, it's not like anyone would notice. I don't get the impression horn players appreciate jazz guitar like we appreciate jazz horns.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    Play melodies of songs, then improvise around them. Derive some melodic motifs from them and improvise using them. Do some transcribing of stuff you feel you're lacking. Or just spend time playing rhythm, it's bound to change your soloing too.
    YES, I knew getting some ideas from other people was going to help. I like the idea of starting from the melody. I always like melodic jazz but this didn't occur to me. It also hints at why the latest virtual jam piece (Pent Up House) left me wondering. The head is a strange "melody" for me.

    Playing rhythm to improve soloing is one from left field for me. I will try it. Maybe with some additional notes to fill in between the chords?

    Thanks

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    Learn a few licks, it won't hurt you. Call it "ear training" if you have to. The only people who think it's a cop out are bedroom players on internet forums. Nobody in a live setting is going to care, unless you regurgitate complete solos. But even then, if you played some Tal Farlow solo note for note, it's not like anyone would notice. I don't get the impression horn players appreciate jazz guitar like we appreciate jazz horns.
    Interesting observation. Yep, can't hurt.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    Play melodies of songs, then improvise around them.
    This.

  8. #7

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    One of the most useful bits of homework I was ever given by a teacher was to write out some of my own jazz licks. The downbeats had to be in the scale, upbeats not necessarily in the scale. Over ii V I's

    I did it over a few days years ago and I still use a couple.

    I believe in strumming the chords and scat singing. When you find something you like, learn to play it.

    Here's one I think I made up.

    When playing Song A, think of the melody of another song, call it Song B. Solo using the rhythm of Song A's melody, but select the notes based on what will work over the changes to Song A.

    So, say you're playing How High The Moon. Think of the melody of, say, All of Me. Then play some notes that will work over How High, using the rhythm of the melody of All of Me. Don't like All of Me? Use any other song. If I had to do it right now, I'd use On Broadway.

    You only need a fragment to get you moving in a different direction than usual.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    One of the most useful bits of homework I was ever given by a teacher was to write out some of my own jazz licks. The downbeats had to be in the scale, upbeats not necessarily in the scale. Over ii V I's

    I did it over a few days years ago and I still use a couple.

    I believe in strumming the chords and scat singing. When you find something you like, learn to play it.

    Here's one I think I made up.

    When playing Song A, think of the melody of another song, call it Song B. Solo using the rhythm of Song A's melody, but select the notes based on what will work over the changes to Song A.

    So, say you're playing How High The Moon. Think of the melody of, say, All of Me. Then play some notes that will work over How High, using the rhythm of the melody of All of Me. Don't like All of Me? Use any other song. If I had to do it right now, I'd use On Broadway.

    You only need a fragment to get you moving in a different direction than usual.

    Maybe writing down something you invent prevents you forgetting it. I have had that happen.

    Figuring out something you vocalise is probably good ear training too.

    As for the song B over song A's rhythm, I have had that happen by accident. Yeah, can be interesting.

    Thanks for the tips

  10. #9

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    Force yourself to change meters.

  11. #10

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    For me the main problem, that when improvising, the only musical idea I hear in my head is my previous impros, my cliches. I mean not only my hand and muscle memory what causes the boringness, but my head too.

    So I concluded, my musical head and musical memory needs first of all refreshment and way strongest and focused input. With other words, listening, but not just for joy, instead for memorizing impros in head, and of course transcribing, at least for few bar licks. I would like to hear those fragments in my head creative randomly when improvising.

  12. #11

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    Learning to play jazz is a very long and demanding process.
    As for the Pent Up House ... first listen to as many versions of this song as possible /on youtube for ex/..
    Don't limit yourself to the guitar versions.
    Listen as the masters build solos...build your dictionary 2 5 1 and 2 5.
    You don't have to think about the melody all the time ... think about harmony and build phrases.
    You need your practical knowledge to play Pent up House.Try slowly and gradually increase the tempo ... work on feeling and time.
    Remember 2 5 1 is practically by most jazz standards, so build your own jazz language.
    These are the basics.

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    Learning to play jazz is a very long and demanding process.
    As for the Pent Up House ... first listen to as many versions of this song as possible /on youtube for ex/..
    Don't limit yourself to the guitar versions.
    Listen as the masters build solos...build your dictionary 2 5 1 and 2 5.
    You don't have to think about the melody all the time ... think about harmony and build phrases.
    You need your practical knowledge to play Pent up House.Try slowly and gradually increase the tempo ... work on feeling and time.
    Remember 2 5 1 is practically by most jazz standards, so build your own jazz language.
    These are the basics.
    hmmm... maybe I am drawing too fine a line between a pre-rehearsed lick and a phrase as part of the vocabulary.

  14. #13

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    It's very possible it sounds samey because it is samey. That is, your ammunition is limited. Say you have a major 251. How do you play it? All major scale? Outline the chords? Make it sound bluesey? Use pentatonics?

    But say you had about 20 different ways of playing that 251? So you need to understand chord subs and their associated scales. You need a whole range of options.

    It's probably the limited range of options that's keeping it samey. What else could it be?

  15. #14
    It’s going to be very difficult to come up with new and interesting ideas if you don’t have a good knowledge of the language. You will best acquire that by listening and imitating others. Listening, transcribing, learning licks will build up vocabulary. Once you become more fluent, your own ideas will flow. It takes a long time. Be patient and disciplined. The other route is to learn the theory and develop your own sound. You would need to have a strong creative talent for this and already be hearing that sound in your head. Or do both.
    Last edited by Victor Saumarez; 06-21-2022 at 10:24 AM.

  16. #15

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    In music it is is easy to be misled by its seemingly transparent structure.

    But it is as much an art as literature or painting with plot, contents, drama, stories.

    Maybe it seems too obsocure.

    But my advise is being versatile artistically... we do not lear licks. Mahler or Bruckner could not write an hour symphony out of licks.
    They wrote it like a novel...

    Find stories you want to tell, characters to develop, sentiments to discover.

    Music is organazing chaos of feelings and senses.

    It can be just one, two, three notes.. but with drama, weight, character

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4zz
    I am finding it hard to come up with new and interesting improvisations. This occurred to me while attempting the latest virtual jam song here. I set up the song's backing track and learnt the head, but as soon as I start to improvise, the same old sounds come out.

    It's a bit disheartening. More practice just seems to find me reinforcing the same improvisation "habits". I can follow the scale that fits over the chords, or just stick close to a pentatonic that fits, and try to add some interesting extra notes, but still I end up targetting the same old notes in the same old way.

    Should I concentrate on learning lot's of licks so I have more ammunition when trying to do something new? I have avoided learning too many licks by rote, wanting to understand the music and harmonies better and use that when playing. Then there are arpeggios. Easy to fit over chords, but in fact I find them even more limited in the variety of sounds I can get, although I admit some examples I have heard others play sound good.

    Looking for some suggestions for areas to concentrate on in my reading and practice that may help.
    The best way to develop improvisation is not always to improvise. Improvising despite peoples high falutin rhetoric is nine times out of ten just the recombination of stuff that is known on a deep level. So, the skill of the improviser maybe found as much in the ability to get the most mileage out of a few ideas and generate variations as in the amount of stuff that is known.

    So improvising and expecting new stuff to come out can be frustrating.

    There are useful improv exercises but as far as I can see they are all based on limitation:

    - play only on one string
    - play only thirds (or fifths or sevenths etc)
    - don’t play the first phrase that comes into your head but eat when the second or third
    - use only this motif
    - start each phrase on each progressive eighth note of the bar (1, 1&, 2 etc)
    and many many more

    these exercises are great for coming up with new ideas.

    In terms of new language, voicings and other material you need to deeply internalise what you learn. So for a new voicing or something try and play it every time you come across that chord type in a standard, for instance. Write a solo that uses only that scale or pattern. And so on.

    my experience is that it takes ages to do this haha

    Lastly there’s nothing wrong with licks. Bach’s got them. Parker’s got them. Call them Schemata, vocabulary, whatever, it’s the same thing. For beginners they are invaluable, an important step towards sounding like a jazz player (or an improviser in any idiom.) We can’t after all write our novel before we can ask directions to the station (and understand the answer)

    for more advanced players the smart way to work is to find ways to vary them and get more mileage through variation techniques. What harmonic contexts can lines be placed in? How can the rhythms be changed? How can we extend or reduce the line? The aim now is to cultivate fluency and identity of voice rather than simply regurgitate everyday cliches.

    Short ideas are often the most useful.

    Hope that helps
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 06-21-2022 at 03:43 AM.

  18. #17

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    Also - can’t believe I forgot - transcribe - listen/play. If you are bored of your playing maybe someone else’s may be more attractive.

    your own playing can then be what it is.

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    The best way to develop improvisation is not always to improvise. Improvising despite peoples high falutin rhetoric is nine times out of ten just the recombination of stuff that is known on a deep level. So, the skill of the improviser maybe found as much in the ability to get the most mileage out of a few ideas and generate variations as in the amount of stuff that is known.

    So improvising and expecting new stuff to come out can be frustrating.

    There are useful improv exercises but as far as I can see they are all based on limitation:

    - play only on one string
    - play only thirds (or fifths or sevenths etc)
    - don’t play the first phrase that comes into your head but eat when the second or third
    - use only this motif
    - start each phrase on each progressive eighth note of the bar (1, 1&, 2 etc)
    and many many more

    these exercises are great for coming up with new ideas.

    In terms of new language, voicings and other material you need to deeply internalise what you learn. So for a new voicing or something try and play it every time you come across that chord type in a standard, for instance. Write a solo that uses only that scale or pattern. And so on.

    my experience is that it takes ages to do this haha

    Lastly there’s nothing wrong with licks. Bach’s got them. Parker’s got them. For beginners they are invaluable, an important step towards sounding like a jazz player, for more advanced players the smart way to work is to find ways to vary them and get more mileage. What harmonic contexts can lines be placed in? How can the rhythms be changed? How can we extend or reduce the line?

    Short ideas are often the most useful.

    Hope that helps


    Yes it does help. I feel you understand. I will take it as much on-board as I can.

    Funnily , it is reassuring to know that it takes ages. I can stop waiting for it to happen overnight

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4zz
    Yes it does help. I feel you understand. I will take it as much on-board as I can.

    Funnily , it is reassuring to know that it takes ages. I can stop waiting for it to happen overnight
    i think I’m finally coming to terms with it haha

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    It's very possible it sounds samey because it is samey. That is, your ammunition is limited. Say you have a major 251. How do you play it? All major scale? Outline the chords? Make it sound bluesey? Use pentatonics?

    But say you had about 20 different ways of playing that 251? So you need to understand chord subs and their associated scales. You need a whole range of options.

    It's probably the limited range of options that's keeping it samey. What else could it be?
    Does your advice stem from your musical experience?
    Why don't you use it in your playing?
    or I'm totally deaf ...

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4zz
    hmmm... maybe I am drawing too fine a line between a pre-rehearsed lick and a phrase as part of the vocabulary.
    Many years of experience are needed to freely improvise ... it is possible by proper practice, listening and playing with musicians.

  23. #22

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    I can't be of much direct help here but I will observe that even Bach (JS) reused a lot of his own material. Of course he often wrote for 2 or more instruments (or hands) giving more margin to play with varying harmonies and counterpoint. I know too little about jazz improvisation to dare suggest that maybe you too can some more variation through the bassline in your solos.

    What I can suggest is to widen or refresh your horizon by practising other repertoire to give you new melodic or even harmonic ideas. There are several classical composers who've used jazz as inspiration (think Debussy); I suppose starting with their oeuvvre would be a good place to start. There are quite a few transcriptions for guitar already (e.g. on free-scores.com) but I guess that it could be even more useful if you have to make your own.

  24. #23

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    I agree, Ragman. My teacher, Tony Monaco, actually told me the same thing. He always shows me concepts and tries to get me to use them effectively. He's never once told me, 'here I'll play this for you and you assimilate it aurally.' He told me it's good to listen to other players for ideas but ultimately you want to be able to do the best with your abilities and optimize your understanding. About the transcribing, I agree. Noone is going to integrate entire solos into their playing, waste of time. However, you can integrate transcribing little pieces and ideas into your playing. This isn't an overly demanding practice. Another member, I forget who, pointed out that doing some transcribing improves our ability to comprehend music in real time.

  25. #24

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    Soloing, as opposed to noodling, is a compositional process. It takes time, dedication, persistence and ...time to even know how to find yourself out of the paper bag you're in.
    Addressing the process, my life changed when a teacher told me to take a song a week, start a portion of my practice listening deeply to a recorded solo (with my ears, not a pen and paper) and write a solo. One chorus.
    So each week I'd put together one solo, written on music paper, and he never even had me play them, that was for me if I wanted.
    A few things I got from this: The discipline of listening for elements outside of my small self defined parameters (Oh! I can do that! Cool).
    The awareness that pacing is an aquired skill.
    The awareness of ideas that build on other ideas.
    Sharpened editing skills that I brought into my real time playing.
    The luxury of calling up lexicon that I miss when faced with the pressure of "soloing".
    The use of more than one line or lick (put a chord into that line).
    A much better appreciation of phrase-craft.

    I don't know about you, but as part of my practice, this really helped me become a better composer, and brought the solo out of the realm of the desperate hand into the realm of the ear.

    Hope this might be helpful.

  26. #25

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    I don't want to argue with Ragman.
    It follows from his thoughts that it is best to do nothing to develop in jazz music.
    What does it mean to waste time?
    If anyone wants to copy a master's favorite solo, do it. That's the motivation.
    It's just learning jazz.The great drummer I played with sang Jaco Pastorius' solos.He was passionate about Jaco.
    Knowing the theory is just a small part of learning jazz.The jazz musician has to be a sponge - soak up everything that is possible.Chatting about wasting time is a waste of time.