Stuck always sounding the same

[Christian Miller]

Or perhaps one’s capacity for self assessment develops with knowledge, skill and experience?

nah that’s just loser talk

[kris]

well it’s a cliche isn’t it - how well would a Monk do in the current jazz environment?

But would a personality like Monk, or Bird, or Miles be drawn towards jazz these days? I doubt it.

awful times...

[Christian Miller]

awful times...

maybe, or maybe other forms of art now do the thing that jazz used to do

[kris]

maybe, or maybe other forms of art now do the thing that jazz used to do

I'm not sure about that ... because it's getting a big fake.

[Christian Miller]

I'm not sure about that ... because it's getting a big fake.

tbf I suspect we are mostly people who would have complained about bop being ‘not real jazz’ in 1948…. I hope I’m wrong, but it keeps me awake at night haha

[emanresu]

Well.. it felt the best ever

[Marinero]

Well, some interesting ideas about playing creatively. However, I didn't hear anyone talk about personal growth outside of music. The nuts and bolts are a given for all serious genres . . . however, unless you are a musical savant that breaks all the rules, there is a seasoning of creative musicians that, in addition to their hard work, is just as important since it gives honesty and depth to their music. Living life creatively has enormous benefits for any prospective artist. Reading quality philosophy, fiction, poetry; viewing serious visual Art; traveling to experience different landscapes, cultures, and most of all communicating, in person, with other sentient beings in a personal one-on-one setting. And, sadly, in an internet age, it is the one thing most of us miss living in our staid, isolated communities of backyard barbecues, pool parties, and neatly-trimmed lawns chattering about local sports teams, inane TV/movies, and why Johnny can't learn in school. Look, the Arts are not egalitarian . . . some have it . . . most don't. That's a difficult pill to swallow for many.
Marinero

[RJVB]

Happens to the best (and if it does, just don't play the butter notes ... )

[emanresu]

[j4zz]

Happens to the best (and if it does, just don't play the butter notes ... )

That's probably the most helpful reply, for me, in the whole thread. Thank you. I am not equating, nor even comparing, my efforts to his, but even at my level, yeah, that's it. Not sure my problem is just too many "butter notes", but it may be some simple version of that.

[RJVB]

You're welcome, I hoped it would help!

I don't know the chronology here, but Herbie clearly discovered a way to get unstuck always sounding the same

(this is actually what I've long associated him with )

[emanresu]

There's this Un Dia en Noviembre piece by Brouwer.
The main theme is pretty much hm.. probably the most mundane thing ever - that's why I'm using it as an example here. Yet, it somehow is damn brilliant. Why?
And of course there is 100000000 more examples of how a basic thing can be brilliant. Same goes for solos.
And that "why" never gets answered... maybe.. hm. Some sort of sorcery.
Anyway. The OP problem is a real one. But also not entirely. At least the focus of solving it gets messed up.
Every technical type of solution feels incomplete. Or avoiding the real one... which is - ? I don't know

[mjo]

! I love this thread !
From a simple, common ( I think ) question / problem comes a variety of replies from:- what are you listening to ; technical bs ( love that one ) ; experience = how do you assess yourself to growth outside of music ... and everything in between....

I loved the Herbie vid ! ... I also loves me some butter The 3rd for sure, helps me keep my place ... the 7th can vary.
... I'm working on it ...

My thoughts on self assessment: ...I can only listen too so much of, even my favorite players. I get tired of everything, sooner or later ... and I hear more of me than anyone -lol- ...sick and tired... Others hear me differently though and I am working on new ideas = One is triads: I start diatonic and alter 5ths, 7ths and extensions ... and I'm not sure where this is going, I don't have it figured out yet Another is learning lines from the greats ( I think there's some transcripts here on the site ) I used too have an aversion to this, but it's damned useful.

I really just wanted to say: ! I love this thread !
-cheers,
Mike

[pauln]

I am finding it hard...the same old sounds come out.

When you recognize a musician's playing on a recording you haven't heard before, you're doing that by hearing that musician's distinctive "same old sounds". Music, at all levels, balances the predictable with the unpredictable. You don't want to scrub all "same old sounds" from your playing level; they play a role in grounding the predictable side of music.

I think what you are looking for is expanded vocabulary the way Reg described it back on page two - relationships between and across lines and harmonies. You will need some kind of system of reference that is "musically cognate with your cognition".

For me, I call them "figures" not in the form of numerals, shapes, or patterns, but as in "figured out"... always by ear in my case. I examine progression harmonies and figure out lines that express them in various ways. Sometimes the same line that expresses one harmony can also express a different harmony. Some lines express the change from one harmony to another by switching, or overlapping, or shifting, etc. All these things and more happen in songs' melodies, so let them be your guides.

With enough figures (or whatever they are called in other systems of reference), you are pretty much free to reorder, combine, trim, spindle, fold, and mutilate them freely, spontaneously... just use your musical judgement to allow the best* ones to pass to your instrument.

Here is an example I figured out yesterday hunting for ideas using Angel Eyes, which has minor 251-like things in the A part...

In C minor (C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, and Bb)

So this will be for things that sound like:

Ab(6 or 9 or 13) or Dm7(#5 or b5)
going to
Gaug/F or Db(9)b5
going to
Cm7

Ab(6 or 9 or 13) or Dm7(#5 or b5)

F D Bb Gb (descending from F at 13th fret first string)
Ab F C Gb (descending from Ab at 9th fret second string)

Gaug/F or Db(9)b5

F B Eb G Bb (ascending from F at 8th fret fifth string)
G Ab Eb (ascending from G at 8th fret second string)

Cm7

D (10th fret first string) and down C pent minor blues something...

=====
These are just sounds I make manifest however I want within a harmonic context. What I am calling the "figures" are the unordered sets of pitches (sort of like unfingerable chords that may express other chords).

In this particular manifestation example I was looking for a cool zigzag Bop feel - a down, backup then down, then up, back down then up kind of line that sets up for a top down simple blues line finish.

* best meaning most authentic, or most appropriate, or most beautiful ideas, depending

[Marinero]

Hi, E,
I bet you're at anchor playing your horn. On nice days in Chicago during my starving artist years, I used to go to a local forest preserve to play my saxes since the neighbors would scream and bang the walls once I started playing in the apartment. I don't think marinas would be any more accepting for horn players. Am I wrong? In later years, however, they never complained when I played CG on my boat in marinas.
Marinero

[emanresu]

Oh. I just search around for "butter notes" and found this crazy vid. It's not me

[pauln]

I thought Miles said, "Don't play the bottom notes"... isn't that what we request most from pianists?

[Christian Miller]

I thought Miles said, "Don't play the bottom notes"... isn't that what we request most from pianists?

Well not me necessarily, depends on the music.

Loads of the greats doubled the bottom notes during the bop and hard bop era, but in Miles’s 60s band, I think he wanted to get away from that. Iirc there are Miles cuts were Herbie is sitting on his left hand effectively. It certainly facilitates the freeer and more open way of playing Miles was interested in.

So while useful in education neat little rules and ‘lies to children’ are no replacement for awareness of musical context. The way I want a pianist (or a guitarist) to play will depend on the gig. The 3-9 voicings that are often recommended in jazz edu contexts sound terrible for some styles of rhythm section playing for example.

I see Ahmad Jamal and Bill Evans as pointing things in that direction, but a lot of the great contemporary players almost seem to have a slightly antagonistic relationship with Bill Evans like Ethan Iverson and Brad Mehldau (way to wind up Brad is to compare him to Bill lol) and are interested in other models, paths untaken. It’s interesting. Bill (and Herbie) is such a basic model for jazz piano 101.

When it comes to how they use the left hand, there are professional musicians who have that degree of flexibility and sensitivity to that, and it’s what I aim for myself. Luckily I know quite a few wonderful players who get it. That said there are also great players who ‘do their thing’ regardless, you just have to know what to call them for…

So sometimes playing the low notes is good, actually (esp on acoustic instruments.) amplified keyboards (including stage pianos) and guitars can complicate things.

[Riquelme]

Thank you this is a super post. I read this forum but never post. I have ordered the overall comprehensive book you link to. Just wanted to express gratitude...

[marcwhy]

Tons of great ideas/advice here for all of us!!

For @j4zz, although there's been a lot of mention of members' teachers, etc., I didn't see (or I missed) you mentioning your teacher. What does your teacher say about your question/dilemma?! If nothing, then maybe it's time for a new teacher; if you don't have one, then maybe it's time for a new teacher! The wonderful thing about the inter-web is that you can email someone you like, and schedule a lesson -- or even a series of lessons! As others mentioned here, a great teacher -- even after one lesson -- can propel you forward with months' worth of work, and then you will develop more and potentially different sounds/vocabulary!

Go for it!! [and have fun!]

[emanresu]

Just one more thought. Maybe when you practice something, you're using the same backing track over and over again?
Could be a problem?

[emanresu]

Still thinking. Been doing that with the same topic for 3 years with very little success..anyway.
I can see 3 things happening in my case.
1. lazy - the automation takes over.
2. tryharding - keep trying to surprise myself going the "the other direction" with the line
3. just plain old numbness

Not all at once but one of those are present most of the time. Maybe its a special type of depression