JGBE Virtual Jam (Round 69) - Song For My Father

[John A.]

I meant using a bossa as a vehicle for the blues. In other words using a non-blues song to play blues licks and lines over. In other words mixing styles, inappropriately in my view, but obviously not in everybody's.



You mean Tudo Bem. I know that album but it's been some time since I listened to it. I've just listened now to Corcovado and Wave (also Tears which comes in between them) and I hear no blues. Your ears must be different to mine!

I was expecting him to play the blue note Ab (b5) as part of the D minor run that comes at the end of each section (F D C Ab G F G) but he didn't. Or, if he did, it's very fast and my ear at no time said 'he's playing blues'.

Wave, apparently, is based on some kind of blues idea (if I recall correctly) but he doesn't. Even if he did it's part of the melody so fair enough. In turn, that would give him licence to be bluesy when soloing, but he didn't.

I think you're definitely hearing things that aren't there! However, I'll concede the piano did play some bluesy lines but that's not the issue. Those players are all Brazilian:

Paulinho da Costa / percussion
Octavio Bailly, Jr. / bass
Oscar Castro-Neves / guitar
Oscar Castro-Neves / drums

except... guess what... Don Grusin (brother of Dave) on keyboards. Fancy that, an American jazz player.



Applies to everybody. Even deaf people, I expect.



Okay, maybe Spanish is the wrong word, but anything that goes Fm - Eb - Db - C to me spells Spanish. Or Spanish-y. Or any other similarity you can name. Including South America.

You're seriously telling me that Fm - Eb - Db - C doesn't sound Spanish-y to you? I think the modern internet expression is LOL!

I don't know what to say, Rags. I play a lot of blues. I think I know it when I hear it. Yes, Wave can be thought of as a kind of blues derivative or blues in disguise. It's a very common way to analyze it. Apart from the bridge, it's a twelve bar blues that uses maj7's on I and IV instead of dom7's. And no, Fm Eb Db C does not sound Spanish-y to me, at least not in isolation from melodic and rhythmic ideas that sound Spanish. There are a bazillion tunes (yes, I counted; that's the actual number) that use this progression. I named a few already. I can easily keep going. Or would you rather I just hit the road, Jack, with the subject Maybe we can continue this Evening.

If I were to pick a quintessentially "Spanish" chord progression, it would be Emaj - Fmaj - Gmaj - Fmaj - Emaj. Apart from obvious ones like Spain or Flamenco Sketches, if I were to pick a jazz standard that seems "Spanish" to me, I'd pick Nardis way before I'd pick SFmF.

Anyway, this horse is long past dead.

[kris]

Joe Pass certainly used nylon strings. And I doubt if it would have been the slightest problem for him.

Besides, that has nothing to do with Charlie Byrd playing blues stuff over bossa nova.

However, he did not play classical guitars.I know Joe Pass used gut strings, not nylon strings.

[John A.]

I’ve been meaning to downsize and consolidate for a while—consider this 175 a mere bump in the road on the way to fewer guitars. I made the mistake of trying a local one which was too pricey and found this one on a late night web surfing session at a reputable dealer. I’ve read a lot of mixed reviews of 175s from this era (2006), but I had a 24 hour evaluation period during which time a luthier friend gave it a solid once-over and a thumbs up. It sounds darker and more “vintage” to my ear than a lot of other more recent 175s I have heard, so I’m feeling (or maybe rationalizing) that I kind of lucked out.

I'm far from a 175 aficionado, but the ones I've played have all been good, and have all sounded pretty much in the same ballpark with one another. One person (who shall we say is not burdened with a foolish consistency) is responsible for (precisely) 87.3% of all ES-175 reviews on the web (I counted). So I've never quite known what to thunk about those reviews. Anyway, the guitar sounds very nice. Pretty similar to your 77 IMO, but then again I think Joe Pass sounds bluesy on Wave, so what do I know?

[kris]

Real jazz musicians play blues everywhere.

[ragman1]

Fm Eb Db C does not sound Spanish-y to me

Okay :-)

[ragman1]

However, he did not play classical guitars.I know Joe Pass used gut strings, not nylon strings.

'Classical guitar' just means a 'spanish' or nylon-strung guitar. Its just a name, not necessarily a technical term.

See this from Wiki about 'Unforgettable', another album on which he used nylon strings.

'All tracks on this album are performed on a nylon string guitar'

Unforgettable (Joe Pass album) - Wikipedia

I doubt if he used gut strings. Gut strings are made from animal intestines and were superseded by nylon or synthetic strings. Although I believe you can still get gut strings.

Can you show me something that says he used real gut strings?

[kris]

'Classical guitar' just means a 'spanish' or nylon-strung guitar. Its just a name, not necessarily a technical term.

See this from Wiki about 'Unforgettable', another album on which he used nylon strings.

'All tracks on this album are performed on a nylon string guitar'

Unforgettable (Joe Pass album) - Wikipedia

I doubt if he used gut strings. Gut strings are made from animal intestines and were superseded by nylon or synthetic strings. Although I believe you can still get gut strings.

Can you show me something that says he used real gut strings?

I think I read about it on the CD cover ... but that's not what I meant. It doesn't matter gut or nylons.
Read more about the design of a classical guitar.
These guitars have very wide necks and the nut is usually 52mm thick. This is troublesome when playing complicated jazz chords. The hand swells ...
I guess that's clear, if not, try it yourself!

[j4zz]

Joe Pass' Top-5 Solo Albums this mentions nylon strings and also gut strings. Maybe gut is used as slang for any non-metal string? Anyway, there is also nylgut, which is synthetic gut. Nice for jazz on a Ukelele

[kris]

Joe Pass' Top-5 Solo Albums this mentions nylon strings and also gut strings. Maybe gut is used as slang for any non-metal string? Anyway, there is also nylgut, which is synthetic gut. Nice for jazz on a Ukelele

+1
I don't have this album in my collection ... my mistake.
A jazz master is known to play.
It is a really very difficult instrument to play jazz.
But is it the full sound of a classical guitar?
Perhaps the recording technique has changed and there are records that sound great with a classical guitar ..
Do you know what classical guitar Joe Pass play?
is it standard nut width?This interests me.
Thanks
kris

[kris]

Here these nylons sound very original and I don't know if it was a classical guitar. The sound and playing of Joe Pass was different than on Unforgetteble.
This Cd I have:-):

I Remember Charlie Parker
Recorded in 1979, this record featured selections culled from the same repertoire featured on the two volumes that made up “Charlie Parker With Strings”. Using nylon string guitar (in what may have been a nod to the contemporary presence/influence of Lenny Breau in Los Angeles at the time…I may be projecting here…) Pass is beautifully recorded here. Again, his wonderfully firm right hand touch is clearly captured in a way that was sometimes lost on archtop guitars. (Lest I be accused of being too critical, let it be known that I think his plectrum/archtop tone on the ensemble record “For Django” is a definitive and classic jazz guitar tone. Gorgeous.) Students of jazz guitar arranging will be hard pressed to find better examples than these beautiful settings of “Everything Happens To Me”, “Laura”, “I Didn’t Know What Time It Was” and “Easy To Love”, among others. Joe knew these songs inside and out, playing them with the intimate ease of someone who grew up with these songs and loved them.

[ragman1]

Using a nylon string guitar with the wider neck is just a matter of familiarity, like anything else. Nylon strings don't have the same punch as steel but I suppose he did it for a change. I wouldn't know.

[j4zz]

Using a nylon string guitar with the wider neck is just a matter of familiarity, like anything else. Nylon strings don't have the same punch as steel but I suppose he did it for a change, what do I know?

Well I quite enjoy Charlie Byrd when I am in that sort of mood. Nothing wrong with that style of guitar. I have an Ovation classical guitar - same model as John Williams used to play (in Sky?)

and enjoy playing it. (admission, I actually like Ovation guitars even though it seems to be the fashion to diss them. I also have an Ovation Celebrity style acoustic)

[ragman1]

I played a nylon string for years. It's all a matter of taste. As for Ovations, as far as I remember they weren't popular because, due to their rounded shape, they tended to slide off your leg :-)

[j4zz]

I played a nylon string for years. It's all a matter of taste. As for Ovations, as far as I remember they weren't popular because, due to their rounded shape, they tended to slide off your leg :-)

That's so true with this classical. There was a rubber pad to prevent the sliding, but it really didn't help much, plus it came off after a few years. The newer Ovations have differently sculpted body shapes, and sit much better.

[ragman1]

They must have got the point :-)

I don't know why they never saw it in the first place...

[kris]

Using a nylon string guitar with the wider neck is just a matter of familiarity, like anything else. Nylon strings don't have the same punch as steel but I suppose he did it for a change. I wouldn't know.

I can call myself an expert on classical guitars, I have been playing these guitars for over 50 years.
Wider neck is the basic problem ... but not the only one.
I currently have three classical guitars and these guitars are very different when it comes to playing comfort.
One of my guitar has a standard 52mm nut and it has the best classical sound.
The second one has a 52 mm nut but a shorter - 3/4 scale-the sound is quite good after professional set up.
The third guitar has a 48mm nut and the last one is the most comfortable for playing jazz.It is a Framework modern Classic.
Another problem is the issue of the sound of such a guitar during a concert, but it is a separate problem.
What microphone to use, piezo pick ups etc...When you play alone it is manageable and when you play with a band it is not so easy.
Are there any videos of Joe Pass playing classical guitar?
I'd love to see it.

[kris]

I like Baden Powell playing and sound!Great articulation.

[ragman1]

Are there any videos of Joe Pass playing classical guitar?
I'd love to see it.

That's a very good question. I've never seen one. I've also never seen a still photo of him with a classical guitar. Doubtless someone somewhere will have one.

The nearest thing I've seen is the cover of the album Unforgettable. The headstock of the guitar looks like it might be a nylon string but, if we look closely, it's not. So not even the record people could find one.

[grahambop]

Joe Pass also played nylon-string on a couple of tracks on the early ‘Catch Me’ album, no idea what it was though. (The album cover I have for that LP shows him playing what looks like a steel-string acoustic, just to add to the confusion!).



As to the later albums with nylon-string (Songs for Ellen and Unforgettable), I have seen some comments online suggesting that he used a guitar made by Roger Borys, something like this:

Jazz Classic — Borys Guitars

[kris]

Thanks Grahambop.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Joe Pass also played nylon-string on a couple of tracks on the early ‘Catch Me’ album, no idea what it was though. (The album cover I have for that LP shows him playing what looks like a steel-string acoustic, just to add to the confusion!).

Here's the original. There's no mention of his instruments in the notes.



And just for giggles (plus the information behind it, if you're not familiar with these), here's the disc itself.



PJ issued some of their jazz on red PVC vinyl, which is not quite as tough as black PVC because the naturally clear vinyl compound is colored by the addition of carbon black. Simple colored pigments do not strengthen the vinyl like carbon black does, and many purists have claimed that records other than black are inferior. Fortunately, it turns out to be a negligible effect that's irrelevant to both quality and longevity. I bought this new in 1963 and dragged it to college, graduate school, and back to my adult home. It lived in my childhood home (I was in high school when I got it). multiple dorm rooms, apartments, and our house over those 60 years before ending up in our current apartment - and it's still as good as new. It's interesting that PJ issued the Sounds of Synanon album (on which Pass finally emerged as the incredible talent he always was) on black vinyl. These are two of my most treasured albums!

[Lionelsax]

Hi !

I'm a bit late, these are two takes in one...

I'm not very satisfied with the guitar take, I prefer the other one even if it sounds easy.

[ragman1]

I have seen some comments online suggesting that he used a guitar made by Roger Borys, something like this:

Jazz Classic — Borys Guitars

On Google there's this entry:



But I can't find the text quoted there within the site.

Within the Borys site itself there's this:

'By 1991, Borys guitars were being played by jazz musicians such as Joe Pass, Jimmy Wyble, Emily Remler, Larry Coryell, Larry Koonse, Pat Kelley. Later players such as Smokey Hormel, Vic Juris, Paul Bollenback and Tony D’Caprio, entered his network of musicians'

About — Borys Guitars

[ragman1]

You'd think that somewhere there'd be a photo of Joe Pass with a Borys guitar, especially in Borys' Gallery section, but no. This is proving very elusive, isn't it!

I've just emailed Borys guitars to ask them about it. I'll let you know...

[John A.]

You'd think that somewhere there'd be a photo of Joe Pass with a Borys guitar, especially in Borys' Gallery section, but no. This is proving very elusive, isn't it!

Pass is mentioned here as playing a Borys in 1991 (toward the bottom of the page). He had an endorsement deal with Ibanez until 1990, and then one with Gibson shortly after for a custom 175 and then the Epi Joe Pass signature model. So it makes sense that there are not a lot of pictures of him playing or specifically endorsing other brands from that time.