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Alter -
I liked your thing. The Kenny Drew reference... was that because he played with Coltrane and had to master the tunes brought into the studio more or less immediately? Or something else?
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04-26-2022 04:06 AM
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I do have an even more pluckier version up my sleeve...
TBH, I liked this tune (which is actually rather sad if you slow it down) till I realised it was circular because then it became an exercise. I mean, some tunes and songs need to zip along, it's the right thing for them, but exercises become just that, technicalities, or possibly etudes, the heads merely being an excuse for the rest of it.
The problem then is they become a bit of a challenge and rather competitive, seeing who can get round it quickest. To my mind that defeats the object of music. I prefer to feel my stuff, I like it to have some meaning. But that's just me, I suppose. Not that I mind a challenge but I think I'd rather not.
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We are not all the same. Some people are musical, some are not. Some people can do languages easily, some cannot. Some find mathematics easy, many do not. Of course, anything can be improved with practice, that's beyond dispute, but it won't change that person's basic nature.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Here's the original recording personnel:
John Coltrane tenor saxophone
Paul Chambers — double bass
Kenny Drew — piano
Curtis Fuller — trombone
Philly Joe Jones — drums
Lee Morgan — trumpet
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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grahambop, I wanted to point out something I noticed that you do which makes you sound authentic that the pros do. You mix short and long motifs, the long motifs have good 8th note feel, and here's the sneaky part that I've noticed about the pros: they let the short motifs ride, sometimes even truncate lines, but it propels the overall feel of the solo because there's no stumbling. Kind of subtle. Have you guys noticed that in the pros? Hopefully I explained myself adequately.
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Originally Posted by Alter
No wonder the piano solo is rather tentative. It’s amazing that he could play it at all.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Repeating a motif and changing it to fit the changes (and maybe changing its rhythm as well) can be very effective though, I’ve been looking at some Jerry Bergonzi video lessons where he constructs whole solos this way, so maybe I’ve taken a bit of that on board subconsciously. I don’t really practise it much, but perhaps I should!
Also I think good time trumps anything. You can just repeat a simple 2 note phrase over and over, and if the time is great, it will sound better than the most fancy line played with bad time. So I think when I’m flailing a bit and grabbing those little bits of ideas, I at least try to keep them in time.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
John Coltrane: Giant Steps - Complex & Logical
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Originally Posted by Alter
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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Yes, in fact I’ve read some stuff by Jimmy Raney where he discusses various ways to break up a solo and make it more interesting, such as motifs, irregular note groupings, rhythmic displacement etc. (all things to be found in his solos of course).
Chet Baker is another good example of someone who alternates short ideas and spaces with some amazing long lines, I’ve certainly listened to him a lot.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Originally Posted by kris
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To me it's like speech, it needs pauses.
Also, it's a bit like those people who post large, dense blocks of text without paragraphs. Useless :-)
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I’ve often followed the advice that Miles gave to John Mclaughlin: ‘Play like you don’t know how to play the guitar!’
Not on purpose though...
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The exception is Pat Martino, who I love.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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Originally Posted by kris
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Originally Posted by ragman1
That said, I think if one takes a "fast" tune slow, that also risks coming off as an exercise. To me, a ballad is an opportunity to explore -- articulations, pulling at the time (e.g., via rubato and double time), different harmonic palette's, long/short tones, dynamics, etc. Absent that sort of exploration, slow is just slow, and the meaning one finds in that as a player is maybe not so obvious to the listener (whereas it's a lot harder for a listener to miss the energy of fast playing).
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Originally Posted by John A.
But these days, just sitting quiet with the computer, I suppose I just like to feel my way through things, I get more out of it that way. Anyway, I know audiences like stuff with a bit of life to it. Speed is associated with virtuosity. Too much speed bores me (McLaughlin bores me) but I love watching Bireli weave his magic.
But, you know, when it's a fast tune on here and everyone's doing their best with it, I wouldn't want to be the guy who breezes through it. That would make me very uncomfortable. Luckily it's not going to happen, not now, no way. But I think there are players who like to show off and it's never impressive. Not to me, anyway.
So when a fast tune like this one comes up I just revert to medium-ish and do something I hope satisfies. Anyway, we just had Round Midnight and that was very slow so we can't complain.
Here's my favorite pick of yesteryear. Dunlop 1mm. Doesn't look that worn but it is. Never let me down
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesolditLast edited by John A.; 04-26-2022 at 05:28 PM.
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Tough tune. At fast tempos I can sort of hear the logic of the changes, but probably won’t be able to play anything meaningful intentionally. At slow tempos, it’s harder to hear the logic of the changes and they start to sound arbitrary.
For me, it’s an exercise, but I think a very beneficial one given the presence of non-resolving ii-Vs in a few different keys. I’ve found these to be really challenging in some of our previous tunes. I’m starting to understand things like repeating lines in a parallel fashion over these chromatic non-resolving lines thanks to Wes’s handling of the Bm7 E7 Bb7 Eb7 in his version of the melody of Round Midnight. Trying a little bit of that in my 80 bpm runs through Moment’s Notice. Even at that tempo, nailing the changes is a chore. I think you’d have to think reductively about the changes at tempo.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
Grant Green, What is This Thing
Yesterday, 01:59 PM in Ear Training, Transcribing & Reading