Is jazz (sometimes) too soft?

[emanresu]

Hey.

Whenever I learn a new song, I put some strict chords on, start to get accustomed to the progression.
Switch to some available backing tracks and hm.. kinda same but added so many smooth colour notes that makes it all too sweet.
Some of them kinda lose the spice entirely.

I remember learning a few songs well and when played in a band, it felt like swimming in a marshmallow soup.

Am I the only one with this problem?

[ragman1]

Am I the only one with this problem?

No. Jazzing up 'strict chords', as you put it, can make them feel a little floury. If you're not used to it, probably.

[charlieparker]

Hey.

Whenever I learn a new song, I put some strict chords on, start to get accustomed to the progression.
Switch to some available backing tracks and hm.. kinda same but added so many smooth colour notes that makes it all too sweet.
Some of them kinda lose the spice entirely.

I remember learning a few songs well and when played in a band, it felt like swimming in a marshmallow soup.

Am I the only one with this problem?

Not sure what you mean. I wouldn't describe jazz as sweet... I think of syrupy stuff like smooth jazz when I hear that adjective. I am not sure what you mean by strict chords, also? Are you talking about the chords from the chart?

Where I do sort of agree and maybe this is what you are getting at is that jazz can sometimes sound a bit, I don't know the right word but laid back or subdued, and I am talking about the harmony. Sometimes when you add a bunch of extensions you lose some of the movement and "spice" as you say of a simpler progression. It kind of becomes a bit washed out. Now, that can be enjoyable but sometimes it's nice to listen to a more basic or simpler rendition where the harmonic movement is more obvious.

[Jimmy Smith]

What do you mean? Do you mean how your music ends up or do you mean jazz in general? Could you point out the quality in an example or use the example as the opposite of what's wrong?

[ruger9]

Of course it is. What are jazzers SO AFRAID of?

[emanresu]

What do you mean? Do you mean how your music ends up or do you mean jazz in general? Could you point out the quality in an example or use the example as the opposite of what's wrong?

I feel when the backing track gets very smooth with those color notes, I feel much less tension and my playing starts to mellow out too much. Can still follow the key changes but it can go quite bland.

[ragman1]

Yes, it will get mellow although, in a sense, that's the point because jazz harmonies are subtle. But it doesn't have to be bland.

What's the tune you're doing this with?

[emanresu]

Trying to lear Angel Eyes well enough. Then was away from home and put some random -1 from Youtube.... The "bluesiness" went completely out of the window.

[ragman1]

Angel Eyes. Goody, nice tune. Are you using this? This about as strict as you'll get. And what speed are you playing it? That A section is just made for the blues. In fact, it IS blues.

[emanresu]

Mine is from New realbook.. I'm pretty sure it is in key of A. Haven't opened it for a while .

[jameslovestal]

I feel when the backing track gets very smooth with those color notes, I feel much less tension and my playing starts to mellow out too much. Can still follow the key changes but it can go quite bland.

While I'm still not sure what this thread is about, (E.g. what is a "strict chord"?), here is what I do when I learn a new standard:

1) Find the most 'original' (and basic) version of the sheet-music; E.g. the one associated with the composer of the song.

2) Record this one in a looper. Learn the melody over this (down pat). Solo over this but only for a chorus of two.

3) Find other versions of the sheet-music, especially those associated with jazz musicians \ actual recordings.

4) Create my own version based on these multiple ones. Record this one in a looper. Use this one for developing my solo.

Note that I didn't include playing the melody in #4 since my experience is that for the melody my group of friends keeps-the-harmony-basic, and for the choruses for the solo, we want a more "interesting" harmony since that gives us more freedom when soloing.

PS: I've added a #5 since it appears one topic here is that backing-tracks can be rather static and thus "boring" to play over (and over):

5), instead of only having one chorus-for-the-sole repeat using a looper over and over again, I'll record two or three, with each one getting more 'out-there' (interesting, revised harmony, alterative chords etc...). Of course this still repeats but it challenges me to up-my-game when I solo over the more 'out-there' choruses.

[ragman1]

Mine is from New realbook.. I'm pretty sure it is in key of A. Haven't opened it for a while .

In the key of A. Amazing. What are you doing???

[emanresu]

In the key of A. Amazing. What are you doing???

Oh, I checked now. It's in Cm

[bako]

What is jazz? Whatever it is, it is true that many styles encompass a wide variety of expression that may include softer and less softer.

[gmek]

I think you're not going to find a lot of excitement and tension in backing tracks. They're pretty generic. If you want something more interesting you need to play with other people or play with recordings.

[emanresu]

I've done my own backing tracks. Very simple, no rhythm. It's ok when the sun is shining and the mood is right.
But they have 7th chords... because it's jazz and jazz has 7th chords I guess. Those tend to wear me down.
Now, made another with triads only and 7th when its dominant. Not gonna say what happened. But it's... something else. Give it a try

[timmer]

Experiment with your own chord substitutions; see if you can come up with something you like better. The fake books, backing tracks, whichever, are not the final decree on what must be.

If it's a bluesy tune, maybe too many ornamental extensions will kill the vibe...but blues without seventh chords? Well, depends on the genre, but still...

[ragman1]

Angel Eyes in Cm. Or Dm, doesn't matter.

As timmer just said, it's a blues. You don't want to change that much. It's not like a ballad where anything goes. Blues chords are best played a bit direct, not softened by unnecessary extensions, alterations, and all that.

Have you found any recorded versions of minor blues that sound too soft to you?

[emanresu]

Have you found any recorded versions of minor blues that sound too soft to you?

Dunno, I should probably keep better track of what am I actually listening. Genre&form-wise

[mr. beaumont]

I've come to this thread a few times wanting to try an offer something, but I still think I'm confused...

I'm guessing that the extended harmony and the way some folks flesh out chords sounds too "ambiguous" to your ears?

I suppose I could see that...I generally like that sound, but it can be harder to follow if you're attempting to play along by ear...

[emanresu]

Yep, I only play by ear(hobby). And it gets very difficult like that.

[mr. beaumont]

Yep, I only play by ear(hobby). And it gets very difficult like that.

That's the damn thing about jazz...it's ear music, but you gotta work that ear pretty hard before it can truly be so.

So here's the million dollar question...how many tunes have you learned?

[emanresu]

Good question. Dunno. Even if I'd say a number, those are untested and unreliable. Could fool around with quite a few but mostly I don't even know what key is it in.
Don't you judge me, it's a weird hobby for me

[mr. beaumont]

Good question. Dunno. Even if I'd say a number, those are untested and unreliable. Could fool around with quite a few but mostly I don't even know what key is it in.
Don't you judge me, it's a weird hobby for me

Nah, no judging...I'm just thinking jazz harmony would sound a lot less "spongey" if you learned 10 standards. There's actually tons of predictable ways in which tunes move...

[Mark Kleinhaut]

To me the continuum is more about wet or dry rather than hard or soft.