The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Off and on, I have been working with the JGO Intro to Jazz Blues Course, along with some other instructional material. I am kind of "getting there" with the F Blues and I have been wanting very badly to start on Bb Blues.

    My attempts to improvise involve using licks and shapes, and right now, I alternate between having a diagram in front of me the whole time, and at then practicing without it.

    I actually feel a little scared because I don't want to mess up my progress, but I am gong to give it a shot. Does anybody have any tips that can help me? Thanks in advance.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    Off and on, I have been working with the JGO Intro to Jazz Blues Course, along with some other instructional material. I am kind of "getting there" with the F Blues and I have been wanting very badly to start on Bb Blues.

    My attempts to improvise involve using licks and shapes, and right now, I alternate between having a diagram in front of me the whole time, and at then practicing without it.

    I actually feel a little scared because I don't want to mess up my progress, but I am gong to give it a shot. Does anybody have any tips that can help me? Thanks in advance.
    Take the licks and tricks that you have learned in F and physically move them up five frets.
    The licks will still feel familiar to you.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    Off and on, I have been working with the JGO Intro to Jazz Blues Course, along with some other instructional material. I am kind of "getting there" with the F Blues and I have been wanting very badly to start on Bb Blues.

    My attempts to improvise involve using licks and shapes, and right now, I alternate between having a diagram in front of me the whole time, and at then practicing without it.

    I actually feel a little scared because I don't want to mess up my progress, but I am gong to give it a shot. Does anybody have any tips that can help me? Thanks in advance.
    I'm not sure I understand: if you learned these licks and shapes as intervals instead of just specific notes or positions, it should be fairly easy to play them in any key.

  5. #4

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    By all means, use the diagrams if they're helpful.

    At this point, and every other point, it's about time on the instrument.

    My main suggestion would be to practice with a backing track. It's very important to learn how the notes sound over the chords.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal
    I'm not sure I understand: if you learned these licks and shapes as intervals instead of just specific notes or positions, it should be fairly easy to play them in any key.
    I am afraid that position also affects my learning. So for me, I know where most everything is at in the first position for F, but when I make Bb the key, I have to jump to different strings, etc...

    Also, I am inherently weak at spatial relationships and moving things around mentally. When I tested for the military many years ago, I found this out. That is why I am asking for any tips.

    I don't want to just move everything up a bunch of frets, and it will take some practice for me to move them from one string set to another.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    I don't want to just move everything up a bunch of frets, and it will take some practice for me to move them from one string set to another.
    Unfortunately this is how the guitar fretboard works, I think you have to use these 2 methods whether you want to or not!

    But one thing I rely on a lot is seeing chord shapes or positions on the fingerboard, which allows me to relate the lines I play to those visual ‘maps’. Even Joe Pass said most of his lines were derived from chord forms and shapes.

    So if I’m playing a blues in F, I might start a line somewhere around the 8th fret and maybe on the 5th string, because that is a nice clear ‘mental map’ I have for F7 (I am seeing the rough outline of an F7 chord in that position). But if I’m doing a blues in Bb, I might start around the 6th fret 6th string, because that’s where I see a very clear mental image of a Bb7 chord.

    From there I can connect to the other chords quite easily, because there aren’t really that many different chord shapes on the guitar (I am talking about just the basic shapes without fancy extensions etc., as this is all you need for the ‘visualisation’ process). So the movements between the chords in a blues is pretty clear after a while, in any key.

    Actually I find that if you can comp the basic chords for a tune, you typically only need to know them on 2 string sets to give you all the shapes needed for any key.

    So if I learn the blues chords in the key of F, starting on that F7 (root on the 5th string), then I comp the same chord progression in the key of Bb, i.e. starting with Bb7 (root on the 6th string), those 2 sets of chords will (with transposition a few frets either way) give me blues in all 12 keys.

    Eventually you can work on this with any jazz standards, not just blues.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan
    I am afraid that position also affects my learning. So for me, I know where most everything is at in the first position for F, but when I make Bb the key, I have to jump to different strings, etc...

    Also, I am inherently weak at spatial relationships and moving things around mentally. When I tested for the military many years ago, I found this out. That is why I am asking for any tips.

    I don't want to just move everything up a bunch of frets, and it will take some practice for me to move them from one string set to another.
    In F do you know the blues scale in all 5 positions on the neck? Same goes for the riffs. If not that is where I would start.

    That is what I recommend; having it be automatic to play any scale in all 5 positions. My understanding is that most guitarist do this but starting with the key of G (since open strings are not required for position-1 for the Major scale).

    If your main focus right now is on the blues; once one has all 5 positions down for common blues-keys (say, F, Bb, A, and E).

    Then staying in one area of the neck play the blues scale in F, then in Bb, then in E, and then in A; This requires one to changes what position they are using and also starting the scale on a non-root note when position-1 isn't used.

  9. #8

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    @grahambop -I have thought about doing something like this, off and on. It appears its time to do so. And this will help with my comping skills as well. I will have to first, modify my diagrams a little.

  10. #9

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    @janeslovestal - This is yet another good tip for me to combine with a couple of the others. I am going to stick with F and Bb in a couple of my favorite positions. I have got a couple of other scales ( e.g. Mixo) down pretty good. The real challenge has been the arpeggios (V7b9, Diminished). To the woodshed....!

  11. #10

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    I was going to say what Graham said. Use positions and shapes. It doesn't take long to get used to them.

    | Bb - 6th | Bbm - 6th | Bb - 6th | Bb7 - 6th |
    | Bbm - 6th | % | Bb - 6th | % |
    | Cm - 3rd | Ebm - 6th | Bb - 6th | Bbm - 6th (t/a) |

    See, it's all round the 6th fret except the Cm.
    When you've got that you can introduce some other interesting sounds, like Bb7alt (B mel m - 7th) in bar 4 and G7alt (Ab mel m - 4th) in bar 8.


  12. #11

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    @Ragman- Thanks as always. I kind of learned a horizontal way of playing, and this is a bit different. But for now, I am doing nothing but these concepts to see if I can get it in my thick, overworked, aging skull.

  13. #12

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    It's great practice to take licks from one position and try to figure them out in another, in the same key. They may work, or they may only partially work because certain notes might be too high or too low.

    If you think about it, the whole thing about improvising is building a repertoire of melodies in your head, and then connecting them with an instrument. You need to be able to find them in any area of the guitar, starting from the most useful ones (where the tonics are in the bass strings). Then you do whatever finger/fret combinations work. Little by little, fingerboard knowledge and muscle memory bring results!

  14. #13

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    As Alter says. Of course there's more to it than one set of positions but the point is it's a start if you're unsure of it.

  15. #14

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    Thanks, Alter.

    And like you said, you are trying to build this muscle memory up. I can still play some classical piano songs that I learned for recitals over 45 years ago because I practiced so much.

    It sure would have been nice if I had learned guitar way back then, instead!

  16. #15

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    What I do is I play in 1 key and its parallel minor for several days then move up a half step. I practice my tunes and exercises. If it's a hard key I will spend more days and if it's an easy key I will spend fewer days. I realized that I might not always play as freely under this regimen but I was tired of only being good at a few keys. Eventually you get better at it though so I recommend it. It takes time.

  17. #16

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    Careful not to bite off more than you can chew—been there, done that. I spent a whole lot of time chasing this and that around without ever approaching mastery of any of it. A teacher convinced me to slow down and focus on one or two things for a long period of time—like....3 or 6 or 9 months. For me that's been things like internalizing first one—and then two—octave root position arpeggios on fifth and sixth strings and correlating them to simple 3 note chord voicings. For months and months and months. Play them around the cycle till you have them down pat. Apply them to a tune like Autumn Leaves or a blues without tons of subs. Gradually, stuff will start to stick and you'll be able to apply some of it on the fly in other tunes.

    Sure, learning your scales in 5-12 positions (!!) might be worthwhile at some point, but if you're getting lost moving a root position dominant arpeggio shape around on just the sixth string, you're probably going to want to get something like the above down pat before taking on too much else. You can make music with just one or two octave major / minor / dominant arpeggios in root positions on those two strings. Make little challenges for yourself to see what you can do with what you already know and build slowly from there.

  18. #17

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    F and Bb are identical, just in different places.

  19. #18

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    Well, I mean the answer to the original question is fairly obvious, I don't think much more needs to be said. But it is true that for certain keys 1 position can be in a nice place on the fretboard, but for another key, the same position is like too high or too low if u get what I mean. So u need to be decent in say 2 or 3 of the positions to not be limited.

    Tip for getting different positions sorted:
    Pick a longish backing track and play about over it in one position. Then rewind the track and go again, sticking solely to a different one. Ull end up being able to pick one of the 5 caged positions at random and feel completely comfortable. Although I have of course, probably the same as many others, a favourite in the first position, cos that's what pretty much all books teach u first and also the one hendrix etc use the most.

    I reckon as guitarist u are luck with the ease of shifting keys. Its more of a pain on the piano when u need to use certain black keys depending on the key. That throws me a bit, but I don't really call myself a pianist.

    Anyone know what its like for a trumpet player? Surely shifting key just one semitone up or down completely throws out any of the patterns with respect to finger movements?
    Last edited by KingKong; 04-04-2022 at 05:06 PM.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    What I do is I play in 1 key and its parallel minor for several days then move up a half step. I practice my tunes and exercises. If it's a hard key I will spend more days and if it's an easy key I will spend fewer days. I realized that I might not always play as freely under this regimen but I was tired of only being good at a few keys. Eventually you get better at it though so I recommend it. It takes time.
    Sorry Jimmy, no offence intended but I don't agree with doing this 'all 12 keys thing' on the guitar. I don't think its necessary at all on the guitar due to the regular patterns that are super imposed on the fingerboard in each key. Sounds a bit mind numbing practicing everything 12 times over.

    The argument i read for the 12 keys thing is that u need to be ok in all keys to not get shown up when playing with others....
    Dunno, if I ever get round to jam sessions or the like and someone decided we had to play e.g. autumn leaves in e.g. c# id probably tell them to @@@@ off! What's the point in picking a key that no one ever plays something in?

    There is however value in making sure u don't get thrown off by the dots on the fretboard. E.g. where say in A , a certain lick, scale or arpeggio puts ur fingers on dots or 'blank frets', in C its the other way round. It's kind of inverted with respect to the dots and the blanks. That can throw me off sometimes moving keys.
    Last edited by KingKong; 04-04-2022 at 05:22 PM. Reason: Improve grammar

  21. #20

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    @Wzpgsr - Great tips here so far, and I keyed in on your warning about watching to not take on too much. I have actual felt pressure akin to a panic attack from taking on way more than I have time and talent.

    For now, I am analyzing great lines in various solos, and I am using them to solo in Bb and F with backing tracks playing. With those notes being a 4th apart, I am trying to exploit that characteristic. I will slowly branch out to other keys. Slowly....

  22. #21

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    ....Band in a Box..just press the transpose button ..12 different keys at your disposal...infinite possibilities and less headache..fun trying out unorthodox keys.....of course notation and tablature changes on the button..

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKong
    Sorry Jimmy, no offence intended but I don't agree with doing this 'all 12 keys thing' on the guitar. I don't think its necessary at all on the guitar due to the regular patterns that are super imposed on the fingerboard in each key. Sounds a bit mind numbing practicing everything 12 times over.

    The argument i read for the 12 keys thing is that u need to be ok in all keys to not get shown up when playing with others....
    Dunno, if I ever get round to jam sessions or the like and someone decided we had to play e.g. autumn leaves in e.g. c# id probably tell them to @@@@ off! What's the point in picking a key that no one ever plays something in?

    There is however value in making sure u don't get thrown off by the dots on the fretboard. E.g. where say in A , a certain lick, scale or arpeggio puts ur fingers on dots or 'blank frets', in C its the other way round. It's kind of inverted with respect to the dots and the blanks. That can throw me off sometimes moving keys.
    It's perfectly fine to only play in the Real Book keys which is about half of them. I prefer to work everything so I'm more proficient on my instrument. Guitar is easier to transpose, but it still takes work to become comfortable in every key. That isn't what I said, to sit down and don't get back up until you've mastered a tune in 12 keys is it? I said I play everything in 1 key for several days to let the material settle. Then I move up a half step and repeat. This lets me work at my own pace, but eventually every key gets covered. I have been doing this for 7 months and I'm starting to feel good in every key. I don't usually go for comprehensive programs beyond play tunes and practice some exercises, but I like this one, it works for me.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    It's perfectly fine to only play in the Real Book keys which is about half of them. I prefer to work everything so I'm more proficient on my instrument. Guitar is easier to transpose, but it still takes work to become comfortable in every key. That isn't what I said, to sit down and don't get back up until you've mastered a tune in 12 keys is it? I said I play everything in 1 key for several days to let the material settle. Then I move up a half step and repeat. This lets me work at my own pace, but eventually every key gets covered. I have been doing this for 7 months and I'm starting to feel good in every key. I don't usually go for comprehensive programs beyond play tunes and practice some exercises, but I like this one, it works for me.
    Fair enough, if you enjoy it then I can't criticise you for it. But I do think it can put people off learning. This pretty much happened to me a while back:

    Book:- "Here's an exercise, learn it."
    Me:- "cool, done it".
    Book:- " now do it in all keys."
    Me: "ok then,will do."

    3 or four keys later:
    "Man I'm bored, f@@@ this jazz shit, I'm gonna play some bb king licks."

    I'm prfering to move on to new stuff more often as opposed to sticking with a particular thing until I've got it in all 12 keys.

    Of course uve gotta be able to play in lots of different keys to be a useful musician. I'm getting that by using the songs to drive it. So e.g
    autumn leaves has two common keys, Gminor and E minor. Summertime has two common keys, A minor and D minor. Blue bossa is in C minor with modulation to D flat major.

    So get those up to jammable standard and uve got 3 songs and 6 keys, as opposed to 1 song and 12 keys for a similar amount of effort.

  25. #24

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    I wasn't having it either with the f yourself program of forcefully running stuff through all keys in a short amount of time. However, I've been playing a while and I was kind of tired of only playing in half the keys, playing the tunes in the same keys ad nauseam, and having keys I was weak at. So I decided to try a more holistic approach which wouldn't traumatize me. I have a decent amount of tunes memorized so I decided to work 1 key every few days. I started with only the bluez but I have been able to work many of my tunes into my all key regimen. I feel it's helped my fluency a lot since I'm on keys.

  26. #25

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    Cool, well if we should ever meet at a jam or something, no showing off ok!