Rethinking Melodic Minor for Altered Chords

[StevenA]

Melodic minor 1/2 step up has been the stalwart reference scale for dominant altered chords. For good reason, this scale provides the intended 5th, 9th alterations along with the root, 3rd and flat 7. However, for a more modern sound, consider melodic minor from the tritone instead. You end up keeping the 5/9 alterations but trading the 1, 3, b7 for the maj 7, 13, 11. It’s like trading your top 3 starters for players to be named later. The maj 7 has long been granted membership in the group of notes considered over dominant altered chords (see Benson:
flux/reflux) The 13 is a frequent go to in
the triad providing 13b9 sounds, and the 11th is the ugly sister to the #11 yet
manages to be well included among soloists. In addition, triad pairs for altered chords would usually be referenced from the 4 th and 5th (for G altered, the pairs would be Db and Eb, 4th and 5th of Ab. But in this instance, triad pairs again for G altered would be Ab and Gb (4th and 5th of Db) Of course, the idea is to find creative ways to resolve these tensions. Give it a try.

[ragman1]

consider melodic minor from the tritone

Are you suggesting Db melodic minor over G7alt?

[StevenA]

Yes

[rpjazzguitar]

Yes

Db Eb E Gb Ab Bb C.

Against Galt that's

#11, #5, 6, maj7, b9 #9 and 11.

The forum's favorite note against G7 <g>, F#.

Compare to Abmel min. Db Eb F G Ab Bb B.

So it's got the same alt 5s and 9s. It has F, not F# and it has a B instead of a C.

Or, stated another way, you take the tritone from the G7 and raise each a half step. So, you've already got the altered 5s and 9s, and now you're going to alter the tritone within the G7 too. You're going to give it a sus quality and a major 7th quality against the rhythm section playing, quite possibly, all four notes a half step away from this C and F#.

If the next chord is C, you've anticipated that resolution.

So, it breaks a lot of so-called rules. Not necessarily a problem, but it would be good to hear it in practice.

How about an audio clip?

[ragman1]

Yes

Doesn't work for me.

Most of it works because of the usual alt notes (b5, #5, b9, #9) and the 13 too. The F# might work but the 4 definitely doesn't. The order's wrong against the fingers.

I'm not interested in it theoretically or whether it looks good on paper, the proof's in the playing. Playing Db mel m lands you in the wrong place. I've just tried it several times in various ways. You can have the clip if you want.

It might be all right if you play it quickly (and I'm not sure about that) but, put it this way, it's no substitute at all for a lot of other ideas which really do work.

[wolflen]

also..the D diminished scale and variations can add some nice jagged lines..

[DonEsteban]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here.

After all, the G7 alt chord is primarily a dominant, in this case to C, typically, but not necessarily C minor. The general characteristic of a dominant is the tritone between the third and the seventh, which is why Db7#11 works so well as a substitute, having the same tritone only upside down.

By the way, Ab melodic minor is not the scale for G7alt but Galt is. (G Ab Bb B Db Eb F G)
This "mel minor from 7th" thing is more of a mnemonic.

If you play Db melodic minor over G7 alt, in reality you play C7 alt as a dominant to .... C.... !

You can make that work? Show it!



Edit: Just realized that in making it Db mel min you take away exactly the two notes that make Db7#11 work ...

[StevenA]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree here.

After all, the G7 alt chord is primarily a dominant, in this case to C, typically, but not necessarily C minor. The general characteristic of a dominant is the tritone between the third and the seventh, which is why Db7#11 works so well as a substitute, having the same tritone only upside down.

By the way, Ab melodic minor is not the scale for G7alt but Galt is. (G Ab Bb B Db Eb F G)
This "mel minor from 7th" thing is more of a mnemonic.

If you play Db melodic minor over G7 alt, in reality you play C7 alt as a dominant to .... C.... !

You can make that work? Show it!



Edit: Just realized that in making it Db mel min you take away exactly the two notes that make Db7#11 work ...

Since it’s fairly easy to resolve anything to a chord tone, I was interested to see how to maneuver through Db Mm over G alt resolving to C, especially the Ab and Gb triad pairs. Anyway, it appears that Rosenwinkle plays out of DbMm over G7 in measure 8 in Blues on the Corner (transcription available on YouTube) referencing the 11 (3x), without ever playing the 3rd or 7th
Interesting!

Further review reveals one F note

[ragman1]

Excellent observation.

[wolflen]

my approach to the MM

the minor maj7 construction and feel takes a bit work to make it sound and feel like it belongs..somewhere

but then remember why it is a synthetic non-functional scale

I take the scale apart and reconstruct it..and I find a fresh way to use it

C Mel Min chords

Gaug Dmin Baug F7 G7 F9 G9 CminMA7

the augmented chords also imply Eb aug..and the augmented scale which also outlines the three minor chords embedded in it: G B and Eb minor

I use the F7 and G7 as 'triad pairs" F and G..the whole tone scale may have some use here

The F9 and G9 (no roots) offer the alt doms (flat five) subs: B7#5b9 and Db7#5b9 (no roots)s ..that could use other melodic minor/altered scales

further experimentation will find the diminished and augmented scales and their chord structures to be useful

given this is just an outline .. in real time..making this kind of stuff fit in will take alot of woodshedding .. but it is a good springboard for improvisational exploration

[Christian Miller]

here's the deal. in jazz music several sets of changes can co-exist. as chris has pointed out many times, in tunes like "all of me" the IV chord goes to the I chord either via #IVdim of IVmin. a soloist might improvise over Fm while the accompanist plays F#dim. it would be faulty analysis to state that the improviser thinks Fm over F#dim.

i'm not familiar with the rosenwinkel recording in question but i know from your description that this is what happens on that blues:

it's a blues in Bb. in bar 8 you'd expect some sort of G7. instead you get these changes from bar 5: |Eb7|Ebm7Ab7|Dm7 G7|Dbm7 Gb7|Cm7|F7| etc. this is what the soloist is playing over. since i dont know the record i dunno if the rhythm section follows these changes or simply play G7 in bar 8 leading to your confusion. in any case the chords that the rhythm secion is playing are not relevant. so while you might hear Dbm7 over G7alt this does not mean that this is what the soloist is thinking. imo this is one of the hardest concepts in jazz music to grasp because it goes against the common but misleading teachings of isolating chords and putting scales to them.

In support of this, for a guy who very often employs chord scale ideas and is known as a modal modern guy, Rosenwinkel definitely also understands and employs this horizontal type of changes concept as well….

Here he is demonstrating it on a blues

like so many of the (sometime) NYC players he has a solid grounding in straightahead jazz guitar, which relies on these principles.

it would not be especially helpful to rationalise his chord choices here based on vertical relationships, he is playing movements in to the chords on the strong beats (often simple chromatic movements); and any of these chord ideas could provide the basis for a single note line.

[buduranus2]

here's the deal. in jazz music several sets of changes can co-exist. as chris has pointed out many times, in tunes like "all of me" the IV chord goes to the I chord either via #IVdim of IVmin. a soloist might improvise over Fm while the accompanist plays F#dim. it would be faulty analysis to state that the improviser thinks Fm over F#dim.

imo this is one of the hardest concepts in jazz music to grasp because it goes against the common but misleading teachings of isolating chords and putting scales to them.

I very much appreciate your insightful observations. If I'm honest with myself, my moments of "true improvisation" are relatively few. As a CST guy, I see the limitations of this approach. In my perspective, it was helpful in getting me "into the game" but, on further reflection, kind of limiting at the same time. As for "All of Me" when I get to the Fmi it kinda feels like a backdoor turnaround to me. Seems as if I gravitate to a mode of melodic minor at that spot. Maybe that's suggestive of the "three in one" chord concept? Here's my level of development a few years ago. I may have progressed a little since then.

[Alter]

Many times it's chord movement, connection or substitution that dictates or justifies certain notes or scales over a particular chord.

The scale might make no sense by itself, might even clash in an ugly way with the underlying harmony, but if the soloist can outline a chord progression that makes sense the whole thing works out.

[Irishmuso]

However, for a more modern sound, consider melodic minor from the tritone instead...Give it a try.

I agree and appreciate your analysis. Of course, for the sceptics, it should be used selectively. No need to cover the entire spread with hot sauce

[ragman1]

I'd like to hear someone use Db mel over G7+. All this theoretical waffle doesn't do it for me. There are certainly right notes in it but there are also enough wrong notes to make it unworkable. For me, anyhow.

[itsmyname]

when I was studying jazz music at school, I remember one of my teacher saying to us to always remember that dominant chords are what he called "the rubbish chords", you can play everything you want but do it with style and he said "thrust your ears" (if you got some lol).

[Christian Miller]

when I was studying jazz music at school, I remember one of my teacher saying to us to always remember that dominant chords are what he called "the rubbish chords", you can play everything you want but do it with style and he said "thrust your ears" (if you got some lol).

I’m stealing that

[ragman1]

when I was studying jazz music at school, I remember one of my teacher saying to us to always remember that dominant chords are what he called "the rubbish chords", you can play everything you want but do it with style and he said "thrust your ears" (if you got some lol).

We hear that a lot about dominants, but I don't agree with it entirely. Dominants can take a lot of alteration, it's true, but there are still notes that can simply sound like awful unmusical nonsense.

FWIW, very few well-known players radically alter their dominants. When they use color notes they're generally very well placed and sound great. I think that's the point really.

Coltrane might be an exception but no one seems to mind :-) Here's one:

[Alter]

One way to see it, if resolving to a minor chord, is as chromatic movement (or "side slipping"). Say chords are G7 to C-7, you choose to play Db melodic minor (implying a Db-maj7 or simply Db-7 chord), then moving to C-7.

This is relatively easy to hear, and it still sounds as a dominant (meaning dissonant) sound and area, moving to a tonic (meaning consonant) one, so it works as an outside substitution..

[itsmyname]

We hear that a lot about dominants, but I don't agree with it entirely. Dominants can take a lot of alteration, it's true, but there are still notes that can simply sound like awful unmusical nonsense.

FWIW, very few well-known players radically alter their dominants. When they use color notes they're generally very well placed and sound great. I think that's the point really.

Coltrane might be an exception but no one seems to mind :-) Here's one:

Joe Pass is one of the masters of altered dominant jazz, I was re-visiting the book "the Joe Pass guitar style", you can find many examples of altered dominant lines, Coltrane is playing the C# on the D7 , this is a good example of "rubbish dominant chords", Coltrane was doing this but Joe Pass was doing differently etc..., and that's cool (then I see the coltrane line on D7 more like a F# triad on a D or a D#_7 then I think it can be a DM7#5b9 , why not, Coltrane was so ....Coltrane. Like the teacher said to me before, if you do it with style, it can't go wrong.

[ragman1]

One way to see it, if resolving to a minor chord, is as chromatic movement (or "side slipping"). Say chords are G7 to C-7, you choose to play Db melodic minor (implying a Db-maj7 or simply Db-7 chord), then moving to C-7.

This is relatively easy to hear, and it still sounds as a dominant (meaning dissonant) sound and area, moving to a tonic (meaning consonant) one, so it works as an outside substitution..

Absolutely. I think simple slide-slipping nearly always works because the resolution is so pronounced, especially from above.

[Reg]

Yea... it's pretty common to have several layers of Musically Organized Harmony going on at the same time... but that is it... they are musically organized.

When I was a kid... I hand way too many chops and licks, could sit in or play any tune and pull off what I though were cool and fun solos, improv etc... And yes they were entertaining and bands and audiences had fun. But when I started performing with.... seasoned jazz player and bigger ensembles, I stared seeing that playing in the moment... using somewhat mechanical expansions of target harmony, chords.... well it can be as bad as playing Vanilla.

My point is just as we use rhythmic organization within space or the Form. How we make music rhythmically organized, to create connections between any and all points or moments within the tune.... anyway just as that process is how we create grooves, create the feels and perception that all the music is connected, and feels like it. That same musical organization also needs to be applied to harmony and melody.

There are reasons why... we use harmony that is developed from melodic minor, harmonic minor, Dorian and Natural minor... etc... The notes and how they interact and which notes have the weight in different musical contexts... does create Guidelines and common practice. When we push or change common practice, the musical organization needs to be adjusted to keep balance or musical reference from which to keep.... Reference, relationships with that reference and how those relationships are Developed.

I used to always voice out melody or melodic lines ... or create at least 5 part voicings below any line. It made me make choices as to what I really wanted to play. Help me find what I thought I was hearing.

It was a trial and error approach for figuring out Musical organization without having to use theory so much. It's been easy for years with composing and arranging programs. Just plug and play.

Even using Function, or the dominant to tonic concepts... or as Alter mentioned side slipping harmonic movement, and even using the rubbish dominant approach concept.... can be organized. The results... how audiences and even players react to what one plays, are better for reasons.