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Hi,
I have been going through the Blue Bossa Study 1, and have just learned it. Very helpful study, in particular with regard to the use of a different scale parts, arpeggio etc. sometimes almost every bar. I can plan something out like this with effort, and write it down and memorize it, but in no way come up with something like this “in the moment.”. Are expert players really able to improvise like this on the fly?
I recall G Hekselman saying, and this is a paraphrase that ‘none of what I play is me, but a mix of what I hear other people play or sing.’ He seems to imply that he has this store of phrases that the has learned and draws from. I think this defines a person’s ‘sound.’ You know when ‘that’ person is playing.
I guess I am thinking that this ability to use different scale parts, arpeggios, and modulate quickly when you only have a second or two to play a few notes emerges over time? I wonder how much pre-meditated calculation goes into it. I certainly hear great players repeat phrases in different pieces so there must be some fetching of these from memory vs. creating anew in the moment.
I know the major, minor (natural, harmonic, working on melodic) scales, pentatonic, blues, mixolydian (pentatonic), and have started on major7 arpeggios (thinking I can more easily add minor, alt from that base). Am I heading in the right direction? I have found that working on these within pieces of music is the most fun and productive, but I need a whole bunch of a single key bars to “think/feel” what sounds good within that piece of music. Thanks for the help.
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03-15-2022 01:13 PM
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To modulate generally means to go from one key to another. In that case it's part of that particular tune and therefore preset. So you know it's coming :-)
But if you mean moving between different scales and arpeggios while improvising then, yes, it's done on the fly. But don't forget the improviser has probably played that tune (and a hundred like it) a hundred times before and knows what works well, where it's going, and all that.
It's certainly not magic or superhuman stuff, just experience.
But that's what we all do, even pro's. Maybe we don't over-analyse it too much, it can bog you down. Keeping it simple even when it's complex is a good idea.I know the major, minor (natural, harmonic, working on melodic) scales, pentatonic, blues, mixolydian (pentatonic), and have started on major7 arpeggios (thinking I can more easily add minor, alt from that base). Am I heading in the right direction? I have found that working on these within pieces of music is the most fun and productive, but I need a whole bunch of a single key bars to “think/feel” what sounds good within that piece of music.
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What you're describing is called "playing changes."
And if I can do it, you can. It just takes practice.
Hint, for starters, no scales. arpeggios, enclosures, chromatic approaches.
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Yes, that's true!!!
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
(Only joking, he's very good is our mr. beaumont)
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I'm not an expert player but can modulate instantly. It only took 4 years of practice.
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It's all based on practise and experience. The more of both, the easier it gets. In the end it's a combination of ears, intellect, and the will/ability to follow instinct.
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I can give you a bit of help too. If you want to instantly modulate without even thinking about it. Originally Posted by mps504
First, the stuff you wanna use should be pretty much in your bones. In the spine. Having it in prefrontal cortex is not enough.
Then....
You can use some app to throw you random chords in random keys. And you try to react. Just go try to play a few good notes at first. 3 is doable. Then add more. 4 or 5. Then your spine should take over (after many months) and orders to play a full scale directly from your fingers...
At first its so clumsy. And feels almost hopeless. But it does work after heavy work and dedication. Too heavy for most people I guess. Planning and minding the patterns and proper fingerings is way faster. But then the planning will remain with you forever and ever.
Dunno.... just try it for a while. See if that rabbit-hole seems like a good idea for you.
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I start with the triad chord tones through the chord progression.
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I can’t imagine why this would be better than actual songs. Songs are patterns, learn the songs, learn the patterns, don’t make things harder than they have to be.You can use some app to throw you random chords in random keys.
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Songs will make you go into known paths. Comfort zones. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
You can use a song to do it. But then you'll end up being where you're most comfortable in.
After doing it well with random chords and random keys, no song is hard really.
Just try it. Don't preimagine.
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I think the answer is yes, advanced players do this routinely. Originally Posted by mps504
I wonder if the obstacle you face is that you're overcomplicating things, or, at least, biting off too big a piece to chew comfortably.
Suppose, for example, you're playing the I Got Rhythm bridge. D7 G7 C7 F7. You see the D7. Do you instantly know what to play? If you're trying to play D mixolydian (known to some as a D7 scale) do you instantly know where to find those notes?
Maybe you play 8 notes on that chord. Whatever note comes last can lead into the G7 chord. One good way to do it is to play a G7 note that's a step, or a half step, from where you finished D7. Do you instantly know where those notes are?
Or, are you going through a more cumbersome mental process akin to, say, "D7, huh? I can play D mix or one of several pentatonics (list them), or Amelmin, or D bebop. Ok, I'll try Amelmin, where is the closest note? Okay, I'll try to visualize the dots on my mel min grid, and find the note ..."
An advanced player doesn't go through all that. He's memorized things that work. So, for example, he may think, "Am7, Cmaj7, D7 and Em7 are all interchangeable in this situation, so I'll instantly pick one, and I already know where the notes are". (Per Warren Nunes' teaching).
Or, he may scat sing a line in his mind and play it without necessarily knowing what it is (or is called).
Or he may have practiced licks for it.
Or, he may have some other approach.
Whichever, the advanced player is past needing to think about what to play over simple harmony. He might choose to think about it, especially in the practice room, but he doesn't have to.
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1 - Create tension
2 - Resolve
Voila, new key.
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Whenever we are learning anything new, it takes multiple gestures to bring it to fruition. To modulate fluidly requires that each new transitional harmonic space is very familiar, awareness of what notes carry over and what notes are different or put differently, many thought/physical events condensed into a single gesture.
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Originally Posted by mps504
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Don’t be discouraged, because most people go through the stage you are going through, but yes, expert players are able to improvise on the fly, because they PLAY BY EAR. All the scales, arpeggios, etc you are learning are for practice time. When soloing, you need to just hear ideas and play them. A good way to practice this is to take a (at first simple) tune, like Blue Bossa or Blue Monk, and play it by ear in as many keys as you have the patience to try. Originally Posted by mps504
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'Playing the changes' means playing over something that is pre-arranged. I found the thread title a bit strange - it seems more like something someone wanting to play free jazz would ask.
For example, if you want to hear someone modulating in an improvisational manner, check out John Coltrane's Interstellar Space.
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But the OP is talking about playing over Blue Bossa? Originally Posted by James W
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Yes - from reading the OP it's evident what they actually mean. I was just saying what the thread title made me think of. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I have to respond again to this with a personal story. It's very personal. Not for everybody Originally Posted by AllanAllen
... probably. It's just a story.
I went to jazz college with 0 knowledge about rhythm-music. 0. Nothing at all. But I knew I should do that for some reason. The feeling of good impro beat good playing, good composing for me.
The first month, I told someone, I'd like to learn to improvise with chords (still struggling with that).
The second month I studied Blue Bossa, thought "maybe I could improvise just by ear?", tried it for a bit and decided it was impossible.
10 years later, after at one point giving up guitar completely (because I hated planning and minding the patters SO F$#@#$NG MUCH) I spent the whole summer drinking beer and playing a flash game. That was heaven.
In that September, I had an idea.. just an idea. I recorded all 12 keys of Maj7 chords, put them on Foobar on random. And tried.. something.
4 years later I had learned javascript and done 3 apps to make that sort of practice a bit more clever. And yeah, after toying with them for so much time, I learned to pretty much change the key "on the fly" wherever I was on the fretboard.
It's a good thing.
It took 4 years because I had actually no help, no suggestions or tips whatsoever. Nobody does it that way. BUT IT WORKS. I was so slow because there is no common practice of this. I bet It should take less than a year for people with average talent.
"don’t make things harder than they have to be." - nope. In this case it's hard because it's not a common practice and here in this forum I've never seen any advice to do it this way. But it should be common practice in jazz.
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Emanresu,
I also enjoy practicing with random harmonies. Working with random harmonies makes the unexpected sequence a frequent guest.
I view it as an attempt to train for any harmonic contingency that may
be encountered.
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Yes we can. As long as it isn't overloading you brain (like doing Giant steps @ 350 bpm) Originally Posted by mps504
I can instantly, without any ...ur... sort of delay change from every scale/mode whatever to any other ... easy, just takes a couple of decades of practicing, LOL, but once you'll get there it's really easy...on the fly...
.. keep on going, eventually you'll get there too, just don't give up!
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Blue Bossa, of course, does modulate. It's all in C minor but pops into Db for four bars in the middle.
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And then some one has to ask ‘what exactly is a modulation and for that matter what is a key?’ and that’s when I start mumbling and staring at my shoes.
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For instance does Blue Bossa in fact have three key areas in it - Cm Fm and Db? Or just two as the melody would suggest?
Or is it all just in Cm and the Db is a sort of mode change (to C locrian)
Its funny the things you start thinking about that you never normally think about when you have to explain or teach something. Is a blues in three separate keys/modalities, or just one overall key?
Is autumn leaves in Bb and Gm or just Gm?
The answer is yes to all. All these things can be true at the same time.
And this can be a stylistic thing - part of the reason Parker sounded like Parker is he was keen on treating the Gm in bar 9 an F blues as if it was it’s own separate key for a bar or two. Lester etc weren’t so into that.
if I was pushed I would say a ‘true’ modulation is that which you kind of have to play to make the changes (like the three key areas in giant steps or the Db in blue Bossa) everything else is sort of decoration.
in practice I like to draw circles around what I think of as the I chords in a chart. This seems to help students.Last edited by Christian Miller; 03-17-2022 at 08:36 AM.
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This might all be right, Christian, but you'd still need to be able to get from a 3 down (C minor) to a 5 down (C locrian) and in my understanding is this what gives him or her headaches. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Or maybe I'm wrong and misunderstood the OP...
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