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Originally Posted by DonEsteban
The long and the short of it is - practice.
People think they have trouble playing changes often when actually they have a trouble keeping track of the form.
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03-17-2022 10:23 AM
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I'm always of the "micro to macro" school of thought...practice until you can change what you play with every change...then look for ways to group.
Or the way I've said it in the past is "get to the point of where you can nail every change...and then don't ever do that."
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Jazz comes from the ear. Theory is cool for educating the ear, and it’s helpful sometimes to have analytical tools to refine concepts and grow. But actual playing music has nothing to do with knowing a bunch of chords and scales. Learn tunes. Memorize them and really know them. Play them in multiple keys. If you learn a tune like Donna Lee inside and out you will have enough raw material to play hundreds of tunes- it’s pack solid with essential vocabulary straight from Bird. It takes many hours of doing simple things. Hundreds of hours. Thousands of hours. Spending that amount of time on a tune like Donna Lee is more valuable for PLAYING Jazz than every other book on jazz ever written combined. Once you can play all those books will be fun to explore. Before you can play they will all be torture, enough to make any sensible person quit.
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You've arrived at more or less the correct conclusion on your own. Most people discover this later, and some never believing creation will suddenly fall from the sky. Players do indeed have a library of licks, which can be short phrases, extended phrases (a whole chorus even), and rhythmical ideas. The closest analogy is language. If you've ever learnt a language you know you aren't given grammar and vocabulary separately and told to speak or write. You are given examples of words combined together using grammar. A child learns one word at a time, and then phrases.
Now, there are elements of improvisation where pure creativity seems to be happening and some will do this, or have more ability more than others. For example, it can be a very simple, or rhythmic idea that may be used a bit like a pause, or breathing space such an "um", "ah", "er" in speech. Another element is the spontaneous use of licks ie combining them innovatively to create a solo, or changing them rhythmically, or even altering the notes within them.
There are players who claim to improvise in the pure sense of the word using their extensive knowledge of scales. Alan Holdsworth was one of them. However, I think you'll find they had to practice their scales in order to know them, and a scale is a lick in the sense it follows a predefined order.
I know of no 'pro' players who—when pressed—ever claim to be doing anything else, at least for the most part. The myth may have come about in the early days as a way of protecting livelihoods. You either had it or your didn't.
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Some of the advice here sounds to me like Steve Martin's advice on how to be a millionaire. He said,
"First – get a million dollars."
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"just practice" is not the best suggestion.
"practice smart" is better but tells nothing much either.
"learn a lot of songs" "do transcriptions" "play arps a lot". Thats the standard working combo.
The OP's question was really specific. And the answer "practice a lot" is not.
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Originally Posted by emanresu
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Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
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Originally Posted by emanresu
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Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
Marinero
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Chuck is playing through a 1961 vertical panel Gibson GA-200 Rhythm king amp.
I have one of these for sale, it is in Hamburgo, Germany.
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Originally Posted by Marinero
It's convenient to have a label for it that everyone knows, but in the end it's the sound...
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My teacher Tony Monaco gives me theory exercises to work out. He doesn't say jazz comes only from the ear and not from theory. He uses theory and his ear. They work hand in hand. I think I would believe him a little bit more than the jazz forum elite. He's extremely melodic and musical too.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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True but using theory ideas isn't necessarily eliminated in performance nor is it misguided to think that way to a degree.
Tony will run through demonstrations of tunes for me and point out theory ideas that he's thinking..
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" He doesn't say jazz comes only from the ear and not from theory. " Jimmy Smith
Who said this????
Marinero
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Originally Posted by Marinero
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Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
I hate to appeal to authority on this, but I once asked Jim Hall if he thought about scales or other musical constructs while he was improvising and he said, quite sternly, that that is not cool. You can’t be listening to your fellow players if you are wandering around in your head looking for theory to apply.
One caveat: I think you can talk to yourself while improvising, in a self-coaching way: more bluesy! less bluesy! more outside! less notes! etc (but don’t be too hard on yourself)…
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Originally Posted by Mark Kleinhaut
Originally Posted by Rsilver
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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Every great player had his path to greatness -- and for each of them, there's another equally great player who did it some other way.
There are great players who know and utilize theory and others who don't.
I doubt there are great players who don't have great ears and time sense.
That said, I think Mark has it right.
Things divide up into practice vs performance and slow vs fast. You start slow in the practice room to develop the ability to play without much conscious thought at high tempo on the bandstand.
As far as the OP about expert players, I think intermediate players can do it on tunes they know well. From there, they can advance by knowing a lot more tunes well.
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So the theory allows the player to internalize all these great structures and free himself up to focus on being creative at performance time, but it's not theory when he's performing. Ok.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
McCoy Tyner style Pentatonic sequence with 5ths,...
Today, 09:35 AM in Improvisation