The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Posts 51 to 60 of 60
  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Babaluma -

    There are two parts to this question, dominants and substitutions. There are a ton of examples of known players using both altered sounds and subs and it would take far too long to go through a million tunes for examples so I won't do that. But after this you'll be able to know the sound instantly when you hear it. That might be easier.

    Also, I'm going to keep it all very, very simple. Always the best way to learn it.

    There are two kinds of dominants, resolving and non-resolving. If you have a sequence like this:

    Em7 - A7 - Dm7 - G7 - CM7

    The A7 resolves to its I, Dm7, and the G7 resolves to its I, CM7. That's simple enough.

    If you have a sequence like this:

    Em7 - A7 - Am7 - D7 - Dm7 - G7 - CM7

    You can see that the A7 does not resolve to its I, nor does the D7. Only the G7 resolves to its I, the CM7.

    Basically the rule is only use the altered scale over resolving dominants. For non-resolving dominants use something else (we'll do it later).

    --------------------

    Now we use the melodic minor scale a half-step above the root of the resolving dominant to get the altered sound. So in that first sequence we'll use:

    Em7 - A7alt (Bb mel m) - Dm7 - G7alt (Ab mel m) - CM7.

    You have to know those scales, where to put your fingers, and then just go for it. If you do it often enough you'll find out how to resolve them. In fact, they pretty much take care of themselves, as you'll discover.

    I've just done this and you can hear how it works. I've done it twice in different places on the guitar. It's honestly not difficult.



    -----------------------

    Then there's the non-resolving dominants. If you use the altered sound over these ones you'll find it doesn't really work. What's more it's hard to resolve the sound properly. So this is how NOT to do it.

    I suspect that you got the 'dirty looks' because you were using altered sounds in the wrong places!

    The sequence is:

    Em7 - A7 - Am7 - D7 - Dm7 - G7 - CM7

    (The next three clips may not display because there's one already here so just click them)

    Stream Wrong alt by ragman | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

    So the thing to use over non-resolving dominants is what they call the Lydian Dominant scale. The simplest way to think of it is playing the ii melodic minor of the dominant. That is, for A7 use E mel m and for D7 use A mel m. The G7 is Ab mel m as before.

    So you can see that the sequence now looks like this. And sounds like the clip.

    Em7 - % - Am7 - % - Dm7 - G7 - CM7

    Stream Lyd Dom by ragman | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

    See the difference? And see how, when you do play the altered scale at the end, how it stands out?

    ------------------------

    So then there are substitutions. Substitutions are a vast and complex subject. You'd need to study it. We all need to study it! But here's a simple sub trick you can use. It's not a bad introduction to subs.

    If you take a Dm triad the notes are D F A. If you take the 3rd up from the D, which is F, and stack that in m3rds, you get F Ab C, which is F minor. Go up once more from the 3rd of Fm, which is Ab, and you get Ab B Eb.

    You'll notice something interesting, that the last one is Abm which is the altered sound. But it's the one in the middle, the Fm, that can be used as a sub.

    So now, instead of playing two lots of Em and Am in our sequence, we can play:

    Em7 - Gm7 - Am7 - Cm7 - Dm7 - Abm - CM7.

    The last one, again, is the altered sound because the G7 resolves. But the other two mean we're playing G mel m over the A7 and C mel m over the D7. These subs give a sort of b9 sound. They also include the 13th of the dominant so you have a 13b9 sound, which is a pretty modern sub.

    Sounds like this. I've done it twice.

    Stream A13b9_D13b9_G7alt by ragman | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

    --------------------

    That's about it. Keep it simple. Good luck
    Thanks for this Ragman, this is a few weeks practice in itself and I will work my way through this. Thanks for taking the time!

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
    Ok good sir, I have a lesson and a clip.

    Here's a lesson on putting a sub without changing the base harmony.



    Here's an example of going crazy with the harmony in music. Cedar Walton the pianist on the tune Blue Monk. I was thinking about this the other day. In bar 3 and 4 of the bluez on his solo he basically goes hog wild and treats it as one big altered fest. I hear whole tone ideas running all the way into the 4 chord on bar 5. It sounds like he treats it as an excuse to run altered stuff all the way through bar 3-4 and well into the 4 chord on bar 5-6. I'll try to come up with some simpler examples in music.

    Thanks the Cedar Waldron example is perfect!

  4. #53
    I have been working my way through all this advice and I am gradually hearing where to place my alerted licks. I have also been trying out a variety of positions, I think the altered scale pattern I had been using was not working for my style. I have found a few others ways of playing it and it has opened up my thinking. I have been using a Hungarian minor sort of pattern which for some reason falls nicely under the hand. I think because it stays in the box of the key I am playing in and you can do nice flowing runs, for me much easier than with the altered scale. I have also thrown diminished and augmented scales into the mix and I am finding this "note soup" is making some sense.

    I am now going to attach this progress to target notes and the arpeggios and exercises everyone has kindly outlined on here and see where I end up

  5. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by DonEsteban
    Take "Autumn Leaves" for example, bar 27 and 28 that are typically played as a chromatic falling chord progression, i.e. G- Gb7 F- E7 (when we are in Bb major /G minor).

    This is a substitution for G- C7 F- Bb7

    Make yourself a backing track with the original chords just mentioned, but then play a line that clearly outlines the chromatic chords, and you have something superimposed. Or do it the other way round.

    Or outline Parker Blues chords against a standard blues comping.

    General tip:

    Playing altered or superimposing different chords are both a kind of "playing against the grain" sort of a thing.

    You need a playing technique that allows you to sound fluent and convincing, and you need confidence. You will acquire both with practice, but it takes time, be patient with yourself!
    Sorry for the late reply. I 100% agree re confidence. Since using this thread I have found myself having much more confidence in just going for it. I have also been recording myself and picking out licks I felt worked. Thanks for this advice!

  6. #55

    User Info Menu

    Can I get some help with the first 10 secs of this sax solo
    (solo starts at 1:22 the embedded video didn't include t=82)

    After a short motif, he plays notes from Abmaj7 chord, then the motif again and then a similar arpeggio moved minor 3rd up? Is the Abmaj7 super-imposition and what it imposes? And the second chord, is that just variation of the first line moved a minor 3rd to create tension or there is more to it?

    I am transcribing a lot lately, trying to identify concepts I learned about from books but it doesn't go very fast

  7. #56

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by velja
    Can I get some help with the first 10 secs of this sax solo
    (solo starts at 1:22 the embedded video didn't include t=82)

    After a short motif, he plays notes from Abmaj7 chord, then the motif again and then a similar arpeggio moved minor 3rd up? Is the Abmaj7 super-imposition and what it imposes? And the second chord, is that just variation of the first line moved a minor 3rd to create tension or there is more to it?

    I am transcribing a lot lately, trying to identify concepts I learned about from books but it doesn't go very fast
    If I try to label or classify things I try to rely as much as possible on how I hear it.

    First case I hear as maj7 arp from the 7th of tge dom7 (Bb7 chord)
    It is not altered sound really to me except that there is b9 at the end resolving to tonic if I am not mistaken.

    Second arp sound more altered or outside ... I suspect it is built from b9(b2) of the Bb7 chord

    Sorry I did not try to pick it exactly.. maybe I am wrong about details but I know how I hear it.

  8. #57

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    If I try to label or classify things I try to rely as much as possible on how I hear it.

    First case I hear as maj7 arp from the 7th of tge dom7 (Bb7 chord)
    It is not altered sound really to me except that there is b9 at the end resolving to tonic if I am not mistaken.
    I wasn't looking for an altered sound in the first arpeggio, I was hoping I recognized a super imposition.
    Is that Abmaj7 superimposing Bb11? Its notes Eb, Ab, C are 11th, b7th and 9th of the Bb? There is also a G, a 13th on the end?

  9. #58

    User Info Menu

    First is Abmaj7. There is nothing fancy here.


    The second is basically two arps: B and C#m7.
    E.g. I and II of Bmaj ( II and III of Bb locrian)


    Something like that is easier to apply for me.

  10. #59

    User Info Menu

    What helped me start with the altered scale was playing it over an augmented dominant chord. I practiced the dom7#5 arpeggio, and once you hear it and are able to resolve it to the tonic, you can build the usage of the altered scale around it.

  11. #60
    It's a wrong note that's why it "sounds like a car crash", because you played the wrong note and didn't go anywhere with it. "Melodic minor" was invented for classical music as an excuse to put V going to a minor or something stupid like that, who cares- not for playing the blues, but in a jazz context the point isn't to use "melodic minor" over the whole thing, but to "prat fall" with it, personally I think its ridiculous having to "learn a scale" that for all intents and purposes is only 1 note different from a major scale.

    The ever-jovial Peter Martin sums it up nicely is a convenient 2 minute video