The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hi. Another topic, but this time from a different angle. Maybe more for advanced players.

    General, I am on the path that everyone has followed or is following. It's a road full of traps, turns, false leads, riddles, frustration, sweat, tears and blood

    The question I have for you is: whether the topics that bored you and on which you tried to find answers were solved by yourself (as a result of gained experience, exercises and your own experiments) or did you find answers to questions from other people (teacher, forum , another musician) ???

    This is a question that I ask myself because everyone is different and everyone feels and perceives things differently. My theory is that only yourself can help yourself. Others can only give you directions to search. From experience I know that I asked different questions, here on the forum, to the teacher, other musicians and everyone spoke differently. Each!

    Here are some sample questions I asked:
    - Which beats do you hear as the ones that make up the melodies: 1234, 1 and 3, or it doesn't matter?
    - Is pro phrasing based on off beat (starting and ending a phrase off beat) and thus making forward motion and more freedom?
    - How to play with chromatics?
    - Is beat One the start or end point of a phrase / idea?
    - Should there be chord tones on the strong parts of the bar?
    - Do you play and think more in motives or follow the harmony? and so on.

    And now a question for you, dear forum members. Does your experience show that everyone has to find answers to this type of questions on their own, or did someone get an unambiguous answer that helped him on his way?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I was sitting with my father in his room at a hospital in Northern Michigan where he had just received his terminal diagnosis; the hospice representative came in and described the hospice process, then handed me some pamphlets and a can of morphine. I said to myself, "That's it? There's no 'playbook' or numbered steps to follow that takes me and him from this hospital room to his final moments?". It was right then that I realized we really are all just writing our own story on this thing.

    I recently got myself a very good teacher. First instructor Ive had since college.

    Best decision I've ever made about guitar.

  4. #3

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    I found the answers to most of those questions simply by listening to the recordings of my favourite players, and following their example.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrandWazoo
    I was sitting with my father in his room at a hospital in Northern Michigan where he had just received his terminal diagnosis; the hospice representative came in and described the hospice process, then handed me some pamphlets and a can of morphine. I said to myself, "That's it? There's no 'playbook' or numbered steps to follow that takes me and him from this hospital room to his final moments?". It was right then that I realized we really are all just writing our own story on this thing.
    Sorry to hear about your father - please accept my deepest sympathies, and I hope you can both make the most of the remaining time.

    Perhaps the hospice representative didn't want to overstay or overshare at what was a difficult and delicate moment. You can probably find more info and support simply by asking. Not every answer will suit every person or situation, but with a little luck you will find a supportive group and the approaches that work for you and for your Dad.

  6. #5

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    Of the issues you listed, I think there is only one that a teacher helped with. That was about not always starting a phrase on the 1. I think hearing that feedback sensitized me to the issue. But, actually incorporating more variation into my playing came mostly from listening to players who I thought had really good feel.

    But, there are certainly things that I got directly from teachers that really helped. Just a couple:

    1. The idea that voicings can be moved through scales. And, for stacks of fourths, you can use all the resulting voicings against both tonic and dominant chords, with a bit of care. That changed the way I comp over the course of just a couple of days of practice.

    2. The basic idea of tonal centers.

    3. Warren Nunes' teaching about two kinds of chords.

    4. Mark Levine's writing that all melodic minor chords are the same chord. Changed the way I think about, and use, those chords, right away.

    If I had to pick one thing, the single most valuable thing ever, it would be the opportunities I've had to play with much better players, in jazz groups. That's the coveted chair. Sit there and you'll figure out how to get better.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by freud
    Does your experience show that everyone has to find answers to this type of questions on their own, or did someone get an unambiguous answer that helped him on his way?
    Both and neither. First off, beware of "one size fits all" answers. Even if you do get an unambiguous answer, it may not always apply to every situation. And whether you have been shown something or you conceptualized it on your own, you still have to teach yourself how to do it. For example, "how to play any scale, mode and key in any position on the neck" was the subject of one of my first lessons with Steve Erquiaga many moons ago. He explained it within the course of a single private lesson, and I understood right away how to do it. There's the unambiguous answer. But it took me well over a year of daily practice to actually be ABLE to do it in real time. That was the part I had to teach myself.

    Another example: you have an idea for a melody, and you figure out how to play it. Then you figure out other ways to play it. Then you start experimenting with harmonizing and reharmonizing it. No unambiguous answer, just applying your own inspiration and knowledge to a question that only you have. While you may be able to get ideas for/answers to the "how to harmonize" questions, you are still the only one who can realize any of those answers on your own fretboard.
    Last edited by starjasmine; 01-06-2022 at 07:05 PM.

  8. #7

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    Yea.. GrandWazoo, I feel for ya. I remember when my father passed, just sucks. Hopefully he's not suffering too much and you have a good relationship with, If not... maybe spend the time etc. There can be a silver lining.... generally we tend to get over all the BS and open ourselves up and can have some good time together. The covid thing is tough, my younger sister passed away towards the end of last year, same thing a terminal diagnosis, and spending time was really tough... anyway my best to your family.

    Freud... I'm a decent pro, But I don't think of my path as tough etc... I new early that the only way to become a good player was to get my shit together on the instrument. By that I mean the technical aspects. The same BS on the guitar as is needed now. There are some more variations... but the technical skills are the same.

    I did seek out players who could actually play for advice. Back then, (60s), you took single lessons from pros who worked... and tried to incorporate their performing concepts into my playing. I started playing gigs while I was still in elementary school. I could somewhat sightread, and had some BS musical understandings... but I did have chops and could copy pretty well and did go through Micky Bakers books... they were like a dollar and simple to get through.
    Anyway my point is I realized... I wasn't going to play jazz, at least live jazz with out getting my technical skills together, even if I didn't understand how to really use the skills. Hell players on this forum still think I don't really know how to play... and they might be right...LOL. But I have always really enjoyed playing, still do... Most musicians still enjoy being on gigs when I'm there.

    Your questions are all very simple to answer... 1,2, 4 and somewhat 5 are about Time and Feel. Of which is by far the most important aspect of performance. 3 and the other part of 5 when playing jazz guitar is about Harmony. Every note has a harmonic reference, even when you use them melodically. The better you understand Harmony and Harmonic References and Relationships, the better your melodic playing will be.

    It takes a lifetime to get this BS together and most of the time... most don't. Not bad, good, right or wrong just how it is. Most of us are not prodigies, wonder kids or that gifted... asking all the right questions won't help if you don't get your technical skills together.

    Teachers... yea be careful. Know what you want.

  9. #8

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    When I was young, the abilities of those who'd mastered the instrument (or any of the arts) were inconceivably beyond my imagination. Technical issues, issues of form and proficiency, even how to think of music were all behind an opaque wall.
    I had many books and a number of teachers; Some of whom gave me concrete answers, some of whom were cryptic (that really annoyed me: "Try them all out and decide for yourself" was the advice that I felt cheated by, but later came to see as closest to the truth). I ate it up because I had no idea and no filters.

    There are students that need concrete advice. There are students that need a guiding hand into a path through the chaos. There are students who ask for advice and resent it. And for all student types, there will be a teacher who can answer the questions you have at that moment. You want answers, the right teacher can help.

    I'm not young anymore, and now I'm giving advice to others. But the truth for me is the more I learned to play, the more I learned to hear. And the education of my ear could only be done by myself, sometimes by walking upon the advice others gave me, sometimes by the rejections I issued to teachers. Always by listening to a LOT of music.
    When you learn to hear, you'll learn that playing guitar is the concretization of the concepts your ear has. When you're at that point, friendly advice from someone who's mastered the weight and space of note play can be a real help.

    I still ask musicians for advice. A little while ago I asked Bill Frisell "When is the last time you learned something that changed the way you think of the instrument?" and he said "Yesterday afternoon... no. Fifteen minutes ago."
    A teacher can only tell you what they know. Learning to play improvisational music is learning what YOU know.
    It's life.
    It seems to me-

  10. #9

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    A lot of questions in the OP can be answered through analysis, if you know how to do that.

    pick solos that are great in the style you like and see how much you can learn. It’s probably best to study styles for consistency. For example, you might get different answers analyzing the Parker Omnibook vs. the Coltrane Omnibook.

    for one idea, analyze the Joe Pass Omnibook, or perhaps bebop guitar solos from Berklee Press.

    parting shot - remember its improv, so consistency won’t be as strong as composition, in general. You can’t erase and rewrite when improvising.

  11. #10
    Hi. Thanks for the answers and sharing your experiences!


    Of course, I forgot to write that looking for answers in recordings and analyzing the performance of the musicians I listen to is an invaluable source of learning. I still think so, but I have a big problem with it. Well, I hear things I want to hear
    So, for example, I get the idea that beat One is the most important and that is why the phrases "hang on it." So to confirm this "theory" I start listening to the records. It just so happens that I drive a lot by car and when I'm on the road I can listen to music non-stop for e.g. 6 hours. And after 6 hours of listening to music, I actually say: oh man - they all play the beat one: D This is how the brain works, this phenomenon is even described in psychology, we see things that we want to see to confirm our assumptions and expectations. I fall for it all the time: D


    Basically, my questions from the first post will boil down to a simple thing: how music works. I still think that as soon as I know these basic principles, I will be able to relate to them and use them to say something musically on my own.
    Over time, I can see how naive this is to think.


    Therefore, I thought that I would start this thread to see if only I have it or if everyone is going their way similarly. Does everyone have to discover these phenomena on their own and everyone has to translate to their own inner language how music works? And can you find answers to these questions with a teacher, forum, or transcriptions.

  12. #11

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    Listening to music in the car is not going to help you much, in my opinion. Learning to play a few phrases from a Charlie Parker solo would teach you a load of these things.

  13. #12
    Hey Man. Sure, you're right. But I listen to music actively, not passively. I count the beats exactly, scroll, count different time signatures, pay attention to playing over the bar line, keep coming back to the same licks, analyzing hearing how things are. Of course, I also analyze the licks in the shed and break down the bars of nice solos into prime factors. The answer is always the same: sometimes yes, sometimes no ...

  14. #13

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    Yea Jimmy's post was post was really.. great. There is a lot if info there. And Don's point about analysis is where your going to end up... maybe.

    Again your difficulties seem to be rhythmically orientated. If you can't feel and naturally know where time is... you might want to work on that aspect of technical skills. Like I said in my 1st post about rhythm...." which is by far the most important aspect of performance".

    Get a copy of Louis Bellson's "Modern Reading Text in 4/4", they're almost free, LOL Just go through it, either singing, clapping, tapping or playing single notes on your instrument.... when you finish the small book... your have time.

    There are tons of videos on youtube with examples. You either have time... or your a time follower.

    Time is just the beginning but you'll never even really begin your journey until you have it. I took lessons from drummers.... again drummers who could play. I was lucky enough to have spent time with Alan Dawson... I though I had time, LOL. There is always someone better...

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by freud
    Hi. Thanks for the answers and sharing your experiences!


    Of course, I forgot to write that looking for answers in recordings and analyzing the performance of the musicians I listen to is an invaluable source of learning. I still think so, but I have a big problem with it. Well, I hear things I want to hear
    So, for example, I get the idea that beat One is the most important and that is why the phrases "hang on it." So to confirm this "theory" I start listening to the records. It just so happens that I drive a lot by car and when I'm on the road I can listen to music non-stop for e.g. 6 hours. And after 6 hours of listening to music, I actually say: oh man - they all play the beat one: D This is how the brain works, this phenomenon is even described in psychology, we see things that we want to see to confirm our assumptions and expectations. I fall for it all the time: D


    Basically, my questions from the first post will boil down to a simple thing: how music works. I still think that as soon as I know these basic principles, I will be able to relate to them and use them to say something musically on my own.
    Over time, I can see how naive this is to think.


    Therefore, I thought that I would start this thread to see if only I have it or if everyone is going their way similarly. Does everyone have to discover these phenomena on their own and everyone has to translate to their own inner language how music works? And can you find answers to these questions with a teacher, forum, or transcriptions.
    I am kind of surprised to hear your conclusion about playing on "the One" beat. In the short time that I have really been honing in on phrasing, specifically in Jazz Blues, I have noticed many times the phrases would start in the previous measure - somewhere around the 4. In trying to put some of the phrases in guitar pro, I noticed many lines end with a 'tie" and carry overt into the next measure for a beat or more. I will have to start listening closer to test your conclusion. Thanks.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrandWazoo
    I was sitting with my father in his room at a hospital in Northern Michigan where he had just received his terminal diagnosis; the hospice representative came in and described the hospice process, then handed me some pamphlets and a can of morphine. I said to myself, "That's it? There's no 'playbook' or numbered steps to follow that takes me and him from this hospital room to his final moments?". It was right then that I realized we really are all just writing our own story on this thing.

    I recently got myself a very good teacher. First instructor Ive had since college.

    Best decision I've ever made about guitar.
    My deepest sympathies for your father. May you be granted the strength and wisdom to weather this darkness, and to remain in the light. God Bless.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg

    Time is just the beginning but you'll never even really begin your journey until you have it. I took lessons from drummers.... again drummers who could play. I was lucky enough to have spent time with Alan Dawson... I though I had time, LOL. There is always someone better...
    You knew AD? You're a rich man! His touch was gold. He played melody on the drums, commented on every phrase and I could hear him playing vibes while he drummed (always a tuned drumset).
    I recorded him back in the 80's when he was playing with Mike Stern and Harvie Es. It was just released decades later. More modern than the moderns.
    Out of feel comes the joy. If you can feel the flow of pulse, where you sound the notes is a commentary on your voice on the flow. Nobody can explain that until you get the flow, and after that, anything anyone can offer is either something you agree with or not. In jazz more than any other music, you teach yourself. A good teacher is one who can offer insight and guidance, and leave you to own it. There's the joy.

  18. #17

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    Hey Jimmy, yea I tool private lessons back in 74 and 75... when he could fit me in. I was at Berklee and worked in the ensemble office, BS and transcribing BB charts... also took piano with...Ray Santisi and James Williams. All of the above were being kind... I was just a young kid who wanted to get better...

    Great comments about feel which comes after time etc.

    I think it's possible to verbally break down some aspects of feel with understandings of Form... and Form organizational concepts. I use Harmonic Rhythm or an expanded understanding of Harmonic Rhythm... as part of attack, accent and articulation organization, with phrasing and that rhythmic Feel thing... I feel with grooves, patterns that have life but also have perception of repeat or cycles. Personally... having that understanding of organizing time and space with sectional aspects. Well I can go on... but basically it's like feeling with larger sections space and it's subdivisions...
    But yea, you need an internal pulse.

    Yea freud... you need to start counting with larger sections of time. That's why I suggested you work through a rhythmic study book. This will help you begin to recognize and feel common accent patterns, which help define phrases or longer sections of time.

    You can actually notate out all the possibilities and plug and play common jazz melodic and harmonic patterns. But it's a lot of work and professionals have already done all the work. Once you become aware of...and then can recognize the patterns, you'll begin to be able to not approach music...beat by beat or note by note. You'll hear by bar(s), then longer section and then Forms... It's just not that difficult, and usually become fun.

  19. #18

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    Here are some sample questions I asked:
    - Which beats do you hear as the ones that make up the melodies: 1234, 1 and 3, or it doesn't matter?
    Depends. Hal Galper describes standards melodies as rhythmically inert; mostly on the beat and often on 1 and 3. It’s up to the jazz player to ornament them, to make them swing. This is less true of Parker heads.

    - Is pro phrasing based on off beat (starting and ending a phrase off beat) and thus making forward motion and more freedom?
    it is necessary to know where to place upbeats so they swing. Phrasing is up to the performer. just know when you are listening it’s not random and the upbeats and triplets have a specific placement.

    - How to play with chromatics?
    Know where you want to get to and when. Build back from there.

    - Is beat One the start or end point of a phrase / idea?
    It is more often the end point

    - Should there be chord tones on the strong parts of the bar?
    often in 8th note lines

    - Do you play and think more in motives or follow the harmony?
    Yes

    And now a question for you, dear forum members. Does your experience show that everyone has to find answers to this type of questions on their own, or did someone get an unambiguous answer that helped him on his way?
    The answers are on the records.

  20. #19

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    There are truths to it. The main thing that I've discovered is you plain old have to sequence motifs. There's no getting around that. That's how good jazzers' lines sound like they have momentum. Some motifs are short, say 4 notes or less, and some sections involve longer lines. Some can be direct sequences, meaning each motif is a formula of the previous one, or some can just be uninvolved, 1 motif leading to the next. It has to be interesting rhythmically. Break it up with some catchy 8th note ish phrases, and some faster passages. You can use theory and/or your ear to learn chromaticism and you're going to want to use some chromaticism to spice things up so it's not only diatonic. Generally chromaticism is just following the general outline of the progression of the tonal melody or harmony only altering it to make it sound cool. Or it can be using one scale or idea over a different tonality such as blues scale over mixolydian or melodic minor over natural minor.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Freud... I'm a decent pro, But I don't think of my path as tough etc... I new early that the only way to become a good player was to get my shit together on the instrument. By that I mean the technical aspects. The same BS on the guitar as is needed now. There are some more variations... but the technical skills are the same.
    Hello Reg, sorry about your loss.

    You know, as an "eternal beginner", I decided that this will be the year that I stop messing around with those half-baked "methods" that promise "one simple trick to sound (almost) like you're playing jazz", and go back to basics.

    The thing is, if one is playing piano, or classical guitar even, there is the conservatory-style method books, and a lot of well-established pedagogy. You drill your etudes, practice your sight-reading, and your solfege, and at some point you are a good enough player to tackle the whole jazz thing.

    But for the electric guitar? I suppose the ear training and solfege and music theory is the same for all instruments; but beyond that, is there a method for playing the electric/plectrum guitar that is generally accepted to work?

    Well, I hope I'm not misinterpreting your message too much. Take care & stay strong, and thanks for your always insightful comments.

  22. #21
    Hey, thank you, gentlemen, for this handful of advice and tips.


    Someone wrote that we live in a world where there has never been so much free guitar education. So widely available. I agree, but this stick has two ends. If you start with YouTube, you can watch materials for guitarists non-stop for several years. You have thousands of courses, tips, forums and materials online. This great number of stimuli and opportunities causes the person to become lost in this amount. Lost and distracted. You start to spend your time searching for information on the web, not with a guitar in your hand. You do not learn from recordings (by ear), but watch YouTubers or other guitar influencers who are advertising a company ...
    So the ease and availability of materials has two sides...

    My searches and questions that I wrote earlier are not so much related to rhythm (as someone wrote) but to the age-old question: how does music work. What makes the melody.
    And I was more concerned with whether you have to find it yourself or if you can get an unambiguous answer from someone. And I know that in music there are no clear answers, because there are a lot of exceptions to every rule. From what you can see, you probably have to go this way yourself, and the tips from others, we have to digest and work on ourselves, into our own musical language.

    Reg - Thanks for your hints about seeing a larger section of time. I know that. I even started a thread where I am writing about it - Phrasing - different view.
    But again - I actually came to the fact that the natural flow gives phrasing in a 4-bar formula. Someone mentioned it on the forum once, and quite accidentally I started looking for it in the recordings. And indeed - music is most often phrased this way. Then I looked for confirmation in wise books and in fact - they write that most often an idea or a musical statement is in a 4-bar form.

    Another thing - thinking motifs, rhythm or 8/16 (and follow the harmony)? There is no single answer here because it depends on an individual approach. According to my question - how does music work - here it can work either as motifs or as simple 8 or 16 (and follow the harmony). No rules?

    The best example of an individual approach to music is the phenomenon of syncopation. How many people so many answers. Perhaps everyone hears and understands this phenomenon a bit differently, and everyone plays it differently. Besides, there are so many varieties of music and jazz that syncopation looks different in the traditional approach than in the modern one?

    So thank you all for the nice answers. It is true that they confirm my thesis that everyone has to go their own way and despite the advice and hints, each phenomenon must be experienced personally. Every element of music must be taken and worked on in its own language and sensitivity.

  23. #22
    Hi guys.


    I promise my last post


    I had an idea that might help people looking for tips for good phrasing. I am also curious about your opinion and how you think about music. This is the quintessence of what this thread is about - what makes the music.


    Check out these videos:



    Derryl Gabel plays here for Stella by Starlight. We do not judge the artistic value (sorry Derryl) - a question I wanted you to:
    Could I ask everyone reading this thread to list the elements that make Derryl's solo work in his opinion.
    Last edited by freud; 01-12-2022 at 11:06 AM.

  24. #23

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    Hey Freud... personally it doesn't really work that well. Which would lead to defining what Works implies.

    Musically from a jazz perspective, the shape just never goes anywhere... I 'm guessing that is part of the design, it's a video that shows how to approach playing through Stella using one set of chord tones and some embellishing techniques.

    It starts and then ends... 1 and 1 and 1 and 1 etc... Part of performing in a jazz style involves creating Musical References, creating Musical Relationships with those References and then Musically Developing them.

    And doing this within the Form and generally the Shape(s) would reflect the Arrangement of how you do this. There are Macro and Micro aspects of this process. Layers.

    Again probable by design the vid has little shape, little rhythmic and harmonic relationships and development.

    If your looking for what are musical elements and how they are used, maybe take some composition and arranging classes. It's not like a check out some vids or online forums and you'll get it. It take years of study with professionals.

    If you have your technical skills together you can learn some standard musical plug and play approaches that help your performance have shape within Forms in different styles. That also takes time and study with professionals.

    Melody and it's use is just one aspect.

  25. #24
    Thank You Reg!

  26. #25

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    Personally, I think you're way over thinking this, but I feel for you trying to understand these things. So I'll try to chime in here with something that might help.

    Playing with feeling, that's a hot topic in music. As far as time goes though, you should always play in time, that's what music is. However, in jazz we don't play our improv with straight eight's, we play with swing eights, that triplet feel. And even when we do play in straight eights in jazz (which does happen too) you should still give it that triplet feel a lot. You just don't want to be straight up on top of every beat like a metronome or like they do in classical music. Listen to some classical players, and you should notice it right away. That sounds great for classical music, but jazz has to swing more. Top classical musicians are outstanding musicians themselves, and there's really superb classical music, and amazing composers too. I've got a lot of appreciation for what they do, too. Just saying it's an even eighth’s thing over there and a good place to hear the difference between that and swing eighth's.

    The good way I've heard of describing the swing feel is as follows. Think of a man walking and one of his feet touches the ground with every beat of the metronome. So the guy is walking in time with the metronome straight up like straight notes. Now think of a horse galloping down the same road. The horse is walking in time with the metronome too, but the sound of his hooves is "galloping" through the bars, that's more like swinging eight notes feel. Still playing in perfect time, because you have to or else you'll sound stupid, but you're getting away from playing it totally straight like a metronome.

    Read up on swing eighth notes. Also, as mentioned, listen to a lot of fantastic jazz players until you start to get the feel, and then start putting it into your playing.

    One way to begin getting the feel is to, when you're alone so that you won't annoy anyone else lol, scat sing along with some great jazz improv on recordings. That gets you active in the process, and you actually feel it because you're doing it along with the recording, then eventually you'll have the feel too

    Playing the outside notes on the weak beats and the inside notes on the strong beats is common. However, sometimes it's good to reverse that and purposely put some tension notes on the strong beats when you want to do that. It's all in the phrasing. Don't only listen to guitar players, either, listen to the great jazz horn players on trumpet and sax. Also listen to jazz piano players do it.

    Which beat is most important? The one, James Brown taught us that.

    Good luck with your playing
    Last edited by James Haze; 01-28-2022 at 04:02 PM.