The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Tunes like Inner Urge, Infant eyes, Fee Fi Fo Fum, etc. I've been taking a look at Inner Urge for a bit now but I haven't been able to make it sound good. It just feels like I'm playing phrases over each chord separately and not connecting the chords. I know voice leading is a part of this and I always try to keep that in mind but still. How does one sound good improvising over tunes like these?

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by asdasdw
    Tunes like Inner Urge, Infant eyes, Fee Fi Fo Fum, etc. I've been taking a look at Inner Urge for a bit now but I haven't been able to make it sound good. It just feels like I'm playing phrases over each chord separately and not connecting the chords. I know voice leading is a part of this and I always try to keep that in mind but still. How does one sound good improvising over tunes like these?
    i don’t think there’s one approach! And I think it is hard to break out of that. One thing I always find a great inspiration is the melody. This is what I’ve learned from a couple of Wayne tunes:




    there’s a lot of lessons in the compositions themselves.

    EDIT: I find a lot of the voice leading reveals itself in upper structure triads which are often referenced by the melody; the way these triads move can serve as a good basis for solo line construction.

  4. #3
    I'll take a look at your lessons later tonight, those are great tunes btw. Wayne Shorter is one of my favorite composers, annoyingly his tunes are also some of the hardest to fluently improvise over ahaha

  5. #4

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    Definitely melody, and then usually each chord or chain of chords hints at a sound, a scale (if you must think that way)

    I always look for connections...the chords on these tunes generally set up harmonic "environments" that last for a little bit.

    Here's Night Dreamer, approached that way...


  6. #5

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    We did ‘Iris’ not long ago in the ‘jam’ thread. I haven’t really tackled Shorter tunes much, so I just tried to figure out some ideas based around the melody and trying to connect some arps/triads on the chords. In fact I realised afterwards that I relied mostly on ideas and structures taken from the melody (as Christian says). Also I’ve noticed that some of Wayne’s own solos use the melody a lot.

    Anyway here’s what I came up with.


  7. #6

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    Oh yes, forgot we did Night Dreamer. Wayne did some blues/pentatonic stuff on this tune, I think I tried some of that too.


  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Definitely melody, and then usually each chord or chain of chords hints at a sound, a scale (if you must think that way)

    I always look for connections...the chords on these tunes generally set up harmonic "environments" that last for a little bit.

    Here's Night Dreamer, approached that way...

    Inspired by Graham and Jeff yet again:


  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by asdasdw
    Tunes like Inner Urge, Infant eyes, Fee Fi Fo Fum, etc. I've been taking a look at Inner Urge for a bit now but I haven't been able to make it sound good. It just feels like I'm playing phrases over each chord separately and not connecting the chords. I know voice leading is a part of this and I always try to keep that in mind but still. How does one sound good improvising over tunes like these?
    Well, I wouldn't start with Inner Urge, it's far too fast and complex if you don't know what you're doing.

    This is Infant Eyes. The solo starts at 2.35 and tells you what he's playing. Yes, it's that difficult.


  10. #9

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    Tricky bit of inner urge is the last bit. It’s still only one chord a bar so there’s that I suppose.

    To be honest I just practice scales and arpeggio patterns through it

    I suggest making sure you can play through the whole last 8 progression without changing direction. It’s very easy to get locked into sequences in whole tones on this tune, so practice ascending.

    i often like to base my lines on voicings so you if can do a cool comp through the last 8, work on lines based on that. Use like triads, US triads, drop 2s or 3s or whatever you fancy with each chord on a higher bass so you are inverting them as necessary. Start from different inversions on different string sets. That’ll sort out out.

    Same as the bridge of Cherokee, or Solar for that matter. Or bloody Giant steps. Or anything.

  11. #10

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    [QUOTE=ragman1;1169914]Well, I wouldn't start with Inner Urge, it's far too fast and complex if you don't know what you're doing.

    This is Infant Eyes. The solo starts at 2.35 and tells you what he's playing. Yes, it's that difficult.

    /QUOTE]

    Thanks for the break down..

    to me it has some flavor of Goodbye Pork Pie Hat

    most composers approach melody first..from there the harmonic outline could be changed which could imply a different direction of the melody and may be heard in a different way

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by asdasdw
    Tunes like Inner Urge, Infant eyes, Fee Fi Fo Fum, etc. I've been taking a look at Inner Urge for a bit now but I haven't been able to make it sound good. It just feels like I'm playing phrases over each chord separately and not connecting the chords. I know voice leading is a part of this and I always try to keep that in mind but still. How does one sound good improvising over tunes like these?
    I have found it helpful to listen to the chords over and over. When I've got them internalized, I scat sing something and then play that. It's not the only thing that can be done, but it can be helpful.

    If you're in a situation where somebody puts the chart on the stand and you have to solo after hearing the head once, then I think it's helpful to know all the chord tones (including the ones you're going to play on where the chart says something different) and try to make melody from those. Even if you don't have a specific singable line in mind, you can imagine a basic shape to a melody and try to execute that.

    The key point is that you have to really know the chord tones in the chords you use -- and not just counting up from the root.

    In the Infant Eyes clip posted by Ragman, a lot of the solo is chord tones and passing notes. The chords are often extended, so that where the chart says, say, Bb7b9, the solo may play on Bb7b9#11, or similar substitution.

    Bar 4 is interesting. The analysis has it as possibly Slominsky. It's three notes from A7. A C# and G. Each followed by a half step below and then another half step below. In a way, it's simple, but, it took big ears to make it fit. He's got a B natural on a Gb that sounds great.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    We did ‘Iris’ not long ago in the ‘jam’ thread. I haven’t really tackled Shorter tunes much, so I just tried to figure out some ideas based around the melody and trying to connect some arps/triads on the chords. In fact I realised afterwards that I relied mostly on ideas and structures taken from the melody (as Christian says). Also I’ve noticed that some of Wayne’s own solos use the melody a lot.

    Anyway here’s what I came up with.

    yes..very tasty lines..not guitar oriented..horn-sax/piano (Evans) feel

  14. #13
    I would approach this from two different angles. The most obvious is to outline the chord, and not necessarily obviously, but making a point of the key changes, done tastefully rather than academically. The second route is to find a line, eg ascending single notes in short intervals that builds to a climax. I've created an example of both these over the last four bars being Cmaj7, Amaj7, Bb7, Gmaj7. Note they are out of time.


  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by asdasdw
    feels like I'm playing phrases over each chord separately and not connecting the chords. I know voice leading is a part of this and I always try to keep that in mind but still. How does one sound good improvising over tunes like these?
    Also... I don't think anyone can show you exactly how to connect the chords. It's too easy to just say 'grab the next nearest scale note/chord tone', etc. If you want to play broken-up phrases then fine, some tunes suit it.

    If you want something more continuous then it depends what you're playing and feeling at the time, which involves feel, taste, skill, and the effect you want to create. So it's up to you. Obviously knowledge of the fretboard helps but that's a given.

  16. #15

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    The logic for learning to solo over a progression is the same as writing a melody, which is to say the same as this:


    Except in jazz we have the added possibilities of extensions and so on.

    The problems you will run into as a soloist are things like; how well do you know your fretboard harmony; learning the triads through the tune is a great start for this, making sure that you aren’t just following the roots around.

    The only difference in using this exercise on ‘functional’ as opposed to ‘non functional’ progressions is that you have to practice is the former tend to come up more often; which is to say functional changes are a shared resource between composers while non functional writers might have their own resources; or use something once only to never use it again. In a sense there is no such thing as functional harmony, just common practice. Any progression can have a function if you look hard enough…

    What makes Inner Urge hard is that the work learning the last 8 is basically spent on a ‘one off’ unlike the bridge to Rhythm Changes or even the Coltrane cycle. You might say that by doing enough weird progressions you get better at the process of mastering progressions.

    That’s one of the biggest separations I think between the older gen and the post-Trane cats: the former could ‘wing it’ through progressions because they’d already played that stuff. Of course it was also much more based around key by and large, so you play melodically through standards by ear and not worry about the changes.

    After Giant Steps everyone was writing this crazy stuff and you had to master the progression. interesting Trane basically went of in a totally different direction after this; got interested in drones and then free music.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 01-03-2022 at 02:54 PM.

  17. #16

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    Well, non-functional harmony means it goes anywhere, if in tonal harmony thirds are played (arpeggios), I think in this case, fourths are a better option because there is no resolution, it's neutral.
    I remember in a thread, someone wanted to know how to name a chord built with C F G Bb E notes.
    I remember I said it was about quartal harmony.
    Everyone was laughing at me...
    I don't know if this guy understood something about this (I doubt it because everyone didn't) even if he was quite original in a musical term (spider legs instead of fingers).

    When I say fourth I include augmented fourth and diminished fourth (sounds like major third).

    Remember too that a quartal chord can be inverted.

    Before saying I am a moron and that I know nothing. Try it.

    (There is also a chord you use in tonal harmony that can belong to quartal harmony.

    You call it C alt or C7+9

    Notes are...

    C Fb Bb E Ab Db Gb)
    Last edited by Lionelsax; 01-04-2022 at 05:54 AM.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax
    I remember in a thread, someone wanted to know how to name a chord built with C F G Bb E notes.
    I remember I said it was about quartal harmony.
    Everyone was laughing at me...
    Well, they shouldn't laugh at you but the chord you've written isn't correct.

    The major quartal chord has a natural B:

    C F B E (CM11)

    The minor chord has an Eb:

    C F Bb Eb (Cm11)

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Well, they shouldn't laugh at you but the chord you've written isn't correct.

    The major quartal chord has a natural B: C F B E (CM11)

    The minor chord has an Eb: C F Bb Eb (Cm11)
    I was sure you wouldn't understand.

  20. #19

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  21. #20

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    Yes man, it's built on a major scale, now try to build them on a minor melodic scale.
    And then you will understand

  22. #21

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  23. #22

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    Lionel, let's not get lost. The question here is about the chord you talked about at first: C F G Bb E.

    What chord is that?

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Lionel, let's not get lost. The question here is about the chord you talked about at first: C F G Bb E.

    What chord is that?
    Quartal chord inverted.
    G C F Bb E
    C F G Bb E

  25. #24

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    To my mind it's just an ordinary C7sus, resolving to an F of some kind. Why complicate it?

    How do you go about improvising over tunes with non-functional harmony?-c-7th-suspended-4th-c-x-3-3-3-6-3-png

    Whoever wrote C F G Bb E wasn't thinking of the guitar!
    Last edited by ragman1; 01-04-2022 at 08:22 AM.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    To my mind it's just an ordinary C7sus, resolving to an F of some kind. Why complicate it?

    How do you go about improvising over tunes with non-functional harmony?-c-7th-suspended-4th-c-x-3-3-3-6-3-png

    or (no G)

    Attachment 87471
    Whoever wrote C F G Bb E wasn't thinking of the guitar!
    Because the guitar plays instead of you.
    In what I said there is a third.