The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    In what I said there is a third.
    What you said, or what the other person said? I thought C F G Bb E was someone else's idea. If so, it's not your fault

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    What you said, or what the other person said? I thought C F G Bb E was someone else's idea. If so, it's not your fault
    No, someone else.
    Someone who plays the guitar and makes music by moving his fingers.

  4. #28

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    Which thread was it? Can you show me?

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    To my mind it's just an ordinary C7sus, resolving to an F of some kind. Why complicate it?

    Attachment 87470

    Whoever wrote C F G Bb E wasn't thinking of the guitar!
    That set of intervals could be described more than one way. Looking at it through the lens of the overtone series, it contains a tritone (Bb and E). Those tones can be eliminated as possible root tones. There are two fifths within it (C-G and F-C), so C and F are both good candidates for the root.

    As this is a five-note structure, there are several seven note scales that could be constructed (C mixolydian, C mixolydian b2, C mixolydian b2 b6) as well as the modal inversions of these scales starting on F.


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  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Which thread was it? Can you show me?
    I can't remember where it is, there are so many threads, I unsubscribed it, there were so many craps, and they congratulated each others without understanding what I was talking about.
    Well... Guitarists...
    And the man went on with his craps saying it was not quartal.
    Everyone agreed him.
    Since this thread I stopped talking about harmony.
    Because not a lot of people know what is about when they talk about.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax
    not a lot of people know what is about when they talk about.
    Sometimes that is true.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsaras
    That set of intervals could be described more than one way.
    Undoubtedly, which is why I was wondering about the original context. Till then, to me, it's just a C7 :-)

  9. #33

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    It's whatever you want.

    C F# Bb E sounds more like a dominant and it's quartal, built on minor melodic.
    Last edited by Lionelsax; 01-04-2022 at 12:22 PM.

  10. #34

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    I guess a balk a little at thinking that there are entirely "functional" and "non-functional" tunes that call for different approaches. There are tunes that are obviously full of traditional ii-V-I GASB stuff, and there are tunes that don't have those obvious harmonic moves, but I think you can impose a sense of function and structure over any tune, except maybe ones that are truly free and without structure. In any tune, you can find areas that feel cadence-y, areas that feel like static tonality of one flavor or another, areas that feel like modulations, areas that feel like they're in motion with some sort of underlying scale, etc. Once you've sussed that out, you can use whatever devices you use to get from one part of a tune to another in more obviously traditional tunes. Overall, melody is as much about phrasing, dynamics, articulation, direction, fast vs slow, dense vs sparse, repetition vs variation, motifs, that sort of thing, as it is about strictly outlining harmony. I realize this isn't very specific or helpful, but that's what I do. I look at a tune, I listen to the melody, and I search for things I can hang my ears on and places where I can plug in my usual stuff, and practice over unfamiliar tunes so as to increase the stock of "usual stuff" to apply. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, same as with easier tunes.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionelsax
    It's whatever you want.

    C F# Bb E sounds more like a dominant and it's quartal, built on minor melodic.
    No, it's not whatever you want. I mean, I suppose it could be but why not stay simple? There are many standards with 7sus chords in them, lots and lots. Why say 'Ah, this is modern quartal harmony!'? It was probably the last thing on the composer's mind, if he was even aware of it.

    So context is important. A 7sus chord in the middle of a Wayne Shorter number is one thing. On page 52 of the Golden Classics Song Book it's another

  12. #36

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    Exactly what Ragman says. After all the theory helps us get by while we cannot yet hear what is playing and we can’t yet play what we hear. (And I mean in detail)


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  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Saumarez
    ...The second route is to find a line, eg ascending single notes in short intervals that builds to a climax. I've created an example of both these over the last four bars being Cmaj7, Amaj7, Bb7, Gmaj7. Note they are out of time.
    I understand that to be what John Abercrombie described as 'playing a straight line thorough a circle'. I feel that. This sounds functional to me, but then I know squat about functional harmony beyond 'Aaaaaa...men.'

  14. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    I understand that to be what John Abercrombie described as 'playing a straight line thorough a circle'. I feel that. This sounds functional to me, but then I know squat about functional harmony beyond 'Aaaaaa...men.'
    It may be that. I've always understood it to mean picking out lead notes to create direction. For example, in my vid, the second idea focusses on notes C (Cmaj7), C# (Amaj7), D (Bb7), F (Bb7), F# (Gmaj7). So, you get a chromatic upwards direction that builds and then releases on Gmaj7. Of course, those notes are embellished with melodic ideas that flow into each other. But you should be able to pick out the line.

  15. #39

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    I'd be happier if the OP showed up :-)

  16. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I'd be happier if the OP showed up :-)
    Sorry, I haven't replied but I've read everything and I am taking all of it into consideration. Thank you all for the advice!

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by asdasdw
    Sorry, I haven't replied but I've read everything and I am taking all of it into consideration. Thank you all for the advice!
    Ah! In that case I'll give you some more. I simply love giving out advice and all that . I've also found that it mostly makes very little difference...

    But the excitement of a project, the tip-tap of the keys as my fingers fly over the keyboard, profundities expounded in deathless hieroglyphics, just overrides every little reluctance.

    So...

    Take a tune like... Iris by Wayne Shorter, since I know it. Or Blue In Green... In fact any tune with those weird, disconnected chords. (But sounds lovely when played).

    Okay:

    How do you go about improvising over tunes with non-functional harmony?-iris-jpg

    So how would you approach that? Bearing in mind there's no key signature on it?

    First, don't separate the melody from the chords.

    If you want the right sounds in your soloing you must take both because the chord symbols may not include all the right extensions/alterations. Some people would query a lot of the chord symbols anyway but we'll take this one as read. Otherwise we'll be here all day.

    Don't look for normal functional connections where there aren't any...

    Unless it's blatantly obvious, like a ii-V-I or just a ii-V. Apparently this is quite hard for people trained in functional harmony to do. They're going to scratch their heads trying to figure out the connection between Fm11 and EM7#11 if it takes them all day. My advice, don't bother. If it's not obvious, forget it.

    So it may mean - and often does - taking one chord at a time.

    I know the usual advice is 'Think in lines and/or phrases' but it may not be possible at the beginning. Be prepared for that.

    Even so, don't complicate things more than they already are.

    Therefore be simple, don't complicate your solo. You can complicate it when you can do it without thinking. In other words, later on down the line.

    So...

    Fm11. Melody notes G, Bb.


    Fm11 is just an extended Fm chord, or Fm7, or Fm9. Therefore think Dorian. Which is what you'd do if it was part of a ii-V-I in Eb, right? So, F Dorian (Eb major scale). Find some notes from that.

    Don't listen to those who propagate the 'no scales, no modes' theory. It's rubbish. You need to know that stuff even if you don't use it much. You could just arpeggiate an Fm or something but what then, later, over other chords? Players do not live by arpeggios alone. Or chord tones alone.

    The notes of the tune are the 9th (G) and the 11th (Bb) of Fm but treating it as a simple Fm7 is good enough. So: Dorian.

    EM7#11. Melody notes G#, F#.


    #11 chords always take a Lydian sound. So you're looking at E Lydian, which is the B major scale. (B major contains the exact same notes as E major except for the A# which is the #11 of E major).

    So that's simple. Play off the 5th of the #11 chord. EM7#11 = B major. So find notes from there.

    GbM7#11. Melody note F natural.

    Same again. Play from the 5th of the GbM7 which is Db major. Find notes from there.

    Bb7+. Melody notes Bb, Gb, Ab.


    + usually means #5 (b13), which is the Gb here, which is an augmented sound, which is an altered sound. So the simplest thing is to use the Bb alt scale, which is B melodic minor. Find notes from there. Or play the Bb whole-tone scale.

    Db7#11. Melody notes Cb (B), Bb, Ab, G, F.

    The usual way for a 7#11 chord is to play off the ii, which is Abm, but use the melodic minor. That gives the #11 (G).

    BUT -

    If you get confused about the melody, shift it down to something recognisable, i.e. C7. So the notes then are Bb, A, G, F, E. You can see they're entirely diatonic to C7 and come from the F maj scale.

    So you might want to consider playing Gb major over this Db7#11.

    AbM7#5.
    Melody notes D, G, E.

    This usually throws 'em. The usual way is to go for the relative minor, which is Fm, and play the melodic minor. So F mel m (from Ab note) is

    Ab Bb C D E F G

    If you look at the AbM7#5 it's basically a C major chord with an Ab bass. You can see that the F mel m contains all the right notes.

    Cm7. Melody notes Eb, F.


    C Dorian (Bb major). No problem there.

    Db7#11. Melody notes F, G, Bb.

    That's got the #11 note (G) in it so use Ab melodic minor.

    Cm7. Melody note D.

    That D, the only note in that bar, is the 9th. So use Dorian (Bb maj) but emphasize the 9 sound. If you want to.

    Db7#11. Melody notes G, Eb, F.


    You're okay with Ab melodic minor there.

    Dbm(b6). Melody notes: Ab, Gb, Eb, Db.


    Now, mb6 chords are generally regarded as M7 inversions. Imagine a Dbm6 chord at the 8th fret: 9x899x and flatten the 6th: 9x799x. That's an AM7/C#. So basically you're looking at A major... but it might be better to play A Lydian (E major). Or just outline a Dbm and avoid the 6th. You have to find a way.

    Db7#11. Melody note Bb.

    Well, you'll notice that Bb is not in the chord, It's the 13th. But you're still all right with Ab melodic minor.

    So you can see we've got a lot of scales from which to draw notes:

    Eb - % - B - Db
    B mel - Gb - F mel - %

    Bb - % - Ab mel - Bb
    Ab mel - E - Ab mel - %

    That's not as difficult as it looks. But it needs a melodic touch, which is up to the player.



    Other Ways

    Of course there are other ways to do this or any other tune. You can use pentatonics, triads, and all sorts. But what you're really doing is limiting your note choices, right? Just using pentatonics or triads can sound bare simply because there are gaps between the runs of notes.

    I mean, over the Fm11 we could just play Fm or Gm pentatonic. Over the EM7#11 we could use F#m pentatonic and, over GbM7#11, the Bbm pentatonic.

    If you try it, you'll see that it works well over the Fm,
    sounds very nice, very modern, but after that not so well. So we can definitely use them (if we know the right ones) but not exclusively. That's why I don't give up scales and modes. They're far too important.

    Here's a pro version, good player. At the beginning of the solo he's just outlining chords. Then he uses some pentatonics and/or triads. But later he needs something more so he uses scales.

    So that's that :-)

















    Last edited by ragman1; 01-07-2022 at 06:44 AM.

  18. #42
    Thank you for the detailed response, don't really understand why you say that it makes very little difference though! I feel like there is a lot of good information here.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by asdasdw
    Thank you for the detailed response, don't really understand why you say that it makes very little difference though! I feel like there is a lot of good information here.
    Thanks. Depends to what uses it's put. Personally, I only do that kind of analysis when I absolutely have to. But it's basically no different to functional harmony, it's just the the segments are a lot shorter.

    Or, in the case of So What, a lot longer!

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by asdasdw
    Thank you for the detailed response, don't really understand why you say that it makes very little difference though! I feel like there is a lot of good information here.
    Ragman has just beautifully laid out which notes can be played on each bar, in order for the improvisation to be consistent with the sound of the song.
    This is how you keep the functionality of the chords. The fact that this song is not based on a single chord to which you relate everything else doesn’t make it ‘not functional’. Adam Neely has a great piece on The Girl from Ipanema, which concludes that the song actually doesn’t have a base chord, yet its base sound is very clear.
    Just a minor note on a major scale: the E Lydian scale is exactly the same as the B Dorian. Probably a typo


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  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eck
    Just a minor note on a major scale: the E Lydian scale is exactly the same as the B Dorian. Probably a typo
    Sorry, was that for me? I've had to correct two things since I posted (thoroughly predictable!) but in this case no typo. E Lydian is B major. B Dorian is A major.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Sorry, was that for me? I've had to correct two things since I posted (thoroughly predictable!) but in this case no typo. E Lydian is B major. B Dorian is A major.
    Haha I’m the fool. I meant Ionian! Just the ‘except the A#’ in your post was your typo.


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  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eck
    Haha I’m the fool. I meant Ionian! Just the ‘except the A#’ in your post was your typo.
    B major is a sharp key. A# is the 7th degree.

    B C# D# E F# G# A# B

  24. #48

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    Melodic/US triads for Iris (slash chords). The triads are informed by the melody

    How do you go about improvising over tunes with non-functional harmony?-iris-melodic-triads-png

    I'd use these in combination with some of the base chord tones.

    The important thing is the triads in red are the notes you want to lean on.. which is kind of backwards to what you might assume. In this case we might think

    Eb lydian, G# Aeolian, Bb Aeolian etc

    Rather than what you might normally do, which is to build the scale off the root of the chord.