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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Look to UNT and Berklee for their courses, then evaluate. (MSM, USC, others...)

    UNT has 4 undergrad and 1 grad improv course. They don't reveal as much online as they used to, regarding content.

    Once upon a time I believe Berklee had about 6? Anyway, UNT has 16 week semesters and Berklee may be on 12 week quarters so...

    But this isn't rocket science. There are levels of difficulty by:
    1. compositional form,
    2. time signature,
    3. keys and modulations,
    4. harmonic rhythm,
    5. tempo,
    6. rhythm


    Beyond that you have :
    1. ability to improvise (vs. memorize/pre-plan) at all,
    2. ability to improvise multiple chorus',
    3. ability to improvise with assigned/required material, (target/approach techniques, upper and lower neighbors, superimpositions, substitutions, upper structures, patterns and cells, etc.)


    In other words, it's one thing to say "hey man I play whatever I want" vs. having a professor say "for this lesson your assignment is to do xyz" - and then be able to do it and do it convincingly/musically.

    That easily seperates levels of players. Of course you have barrier exams for each level of class to begin with. You can't even enter unless you can already do xyz.

    Formal study isn't for everyone, I get it, but standards aren't as difficult to define as some might think. Are there different levels of Accounting classes? (yes, it's already figured out there too).
    Great post.
    I wanted to write about a study program at jazz academies but you were faster.
    After all, music schools are there to give a musician a chance for development.
    They have their own teaching plans and give directions.
    Best
    Kris

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Yes it is that a music academy. It's just the beginning or the end.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Agree with you can play or you can't.

    Levels are for children's piano recitals and adults to feel better about themselves (ever see someone online call themselves an "advanced beginner?" Hilarious)

    I am an" Advanced in Age beginner" does that count. LOL
    Last edited by Ralphy; 11-29-2021 at 08:05 AM.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphy
    I am an" Advanced in Age beginner" does that count. LOL
    +1
    It counts twice.

  6. #30

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    I know a graduate of a highly respected jazz program in her country (I'm not gonna name the school). She was a piano major (sort of singer songwriter type). She said to me that she had no jazz improvisation ability because her one on one instructor kept focusing on higher musical artistry of improvisation while she didn't have the basics down. You can't do that and expect a different result.

    If it takes a student two minutes to chase down a chord tone, you can't focus on teaching them how to sound lyrical when they improvise. But you can help them internalize the mechanics and building blocks in their instruments. What they do with that is up to them.

    If the student has already mastered their instrument but sound mechanical and aimless. Then the instructor would help them work on that.

    If the student is already an accomplished improvisor, then they probably got full scholarship and the school will take full credit for something they had nothing to do with (that's the payment). In that case student was probably enrolled because they wanted to study with a particular faculty member and find gigging opportunities in the city.

    Four years is a very short time. It's not a garbage in, diamond out system.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    As usual you're defining jazz as an academical skill that is unrelated to actually being able to engage people in what you play
    We understand that you are fond of the gypsy traditions of teaching. ( FYI - they have lessons for beginners through advanced too, they just don’t articulate it as well.) One can take a blue collar approach to teaching music if they like but there is no need, especially if the music has evolved beyond its folk beginnings.

    Like it or not, music is taught formally all over the world. This is a pedagogical thread, per Kris’ confirmation.

    For that matter, this is a pedagogical website. Ever think about that?
    Last edited by Donplaysguitar; 11-29-2021 at 10:35 AM.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    Great post.
    I wanted to write about a study program at jazz academies but you were faster.
    After all, music schools are there to give a musician a chance for development.
    They have their own teaching plans and give directions.
    Best
    Kris
    I can give you some basic info about beginning and intermediate improv instruction from one institution if it’s helpful.

    Not my purpose to say whether it’s good or bad, just to say what it is.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    It has nothing to do with gypsy jazz


    It's has everything to do with hiring college graduates and then having to spend 1 to 2 years before they're performing at the level of the rest of us despite all their academic prowess .. and few are forever hopeless as they will just bury their heads in a subject forever if you don't intervene as they are totally incapable of prioritizing and/or making decisions of their own .. Some of the latter even have a ph.d.


    Now granted .. My field of work isn't music, but seeing you hail academia post after post after post just rubs me the wrong way. Not that I think there is anything wrong with college and I have a degree myself, so there is that too .. But end of day it's all about the person and the product they deliver. Just cause you went to "insert institution" doesn't have to mean much.




    Your definition of an advanced player rules out Bireli Lagrene .. I very much doubt that you can get Kris onboard with that.
    I didn’t define “advanced player”. I didn’t define any particular level at all.

    It’s not about gypsy jazz? Then you list one and only one example player and he’s a gypsy jazzer. Nice job.

    And who’s hiring recent college grads to play jazz? Do you lead the Basie Orchestra or something? If you did, you could find some decent players in the One O’clock Lab Band, trust me. Seriously, you make no sense.

    I don’t care what rubs you the wrong way

  10. #34

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    Gentlemen, take it easy.
    Each of you is right.
    I like what Lobomov wrote - there is a lot of truth to it.
    I also like what Donplaysguitar noted.
    Gypsy jazz, whose father is Django R., was simply a genius.
    Django didn't need a school / genius / but others probably need a little understanding of what he was playing.
    His work is studied and analyzed at universities.
    Birelli - takes everything from Django - brilliant too.
    It's good that there are music schools - not all who attend there, however, always become professional musicians.
    They are cool music fans ... I think so.Make it all that simple.
    Jazzingly Yours
    Kris
    ps.
    I like U2.

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    I know .. You don't give a shit about any of us


    But if you did then maybe you'd would have noticed that Kris had a post yesterday about meeting Bireli, which is why I mentioned him.
    It would probably be more productive for you and I to ignore each other but you keep engaging.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    It would probably be more productive for you and I to ignore each other but you keep engaging.
    The Internet - creates a lot of emotions.
    I have stated this myself more than once.
    Don't worry.

  13. #37

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    The usual false dichotomies being played out... but it's actually pretty simple.

    Everyone who can play jazz learns through very close, intimate connection to the music, usually by learning it by ear, and by. playing it with others as much as possible in some sort of scene or community. Some of them also know theory. (Most these days.) The problem only comes when people who don't realise this think the theory teaches the music. I feel this is especially a problem for those with some sort of STEM background.

    This is generally a conceptual problem for people who don't have contact with good professional jazz players and similarly motivated people to play with. These are things that Berklee, for example, continues to provide, and it does seem to have a very good track record of adding value to players, not merely acting as a gateway for the best.

    This is why good players who know zero theory no longer surprise me, because regardless of whether you know the names of things you always learn the same way; listening, playing and being in touch with a community of players who play this stuff a LOT. This is as true for Kurt Rosenwinkel or Pat Metheny as it is of Birelli or Django - they all learned to play outside of music college, notwithstanding that Pat and Kurt know the names of all the modes etc. This shit simply doesn't matter as much as people think, although it is convenient to have names/labels for things.

    If you've been doing the theory route for a while and you aren't happy with your playing, for instance, this is the one piece of advice you could benefit from. For some it may be easier than others, but time spent listening to and working out music by ear is always money in the bank, even if it's hard to find other players in your area.

  14. #38

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    Does it mean that the best solution is playing up to four walls ...?
    Jazz is people, contacts, recordings, festivals etc.
    Unless it isn't there anymore.
    Pat and Kurt - they used to go to Berklee.
    Scof also-3 years as I remeber.

  15. #39

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    So, non-music majors think that "music school = theory"? That's kind of pathetic really. It's certainly utterly and completely incorrect, and that is a fact, not an opinion.

    Out of one side of the mouth we hear "music school won't turn a garage band kid into George Benson in 4 years, so it's not worth it".

    Out of the other side of the mouth we hear "well that guy could play before he got there, so it's not worth it".

    The only thing that we can take away from such a point of view is that music school is not worth a person's time - even though they intend to spend their life as a musician (and music teacher, if we're to be honest). So sayeth the folks who decided NOT to be musicians, or music majors.

    The problem of course is lack of expertise. To become an expert at something, one has to do it. One does not become an expert at something by NOT doing it.

    Next up, let's hear what people who never went to fill-in-the-blank school think about fill-in-the-blank school. On second thought, let's not.

    So, how 'bout them L5s eh? They sure are overpriced! It's not fair that Gibson charges so much because that means I can't have one! Poor me.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    The usual false dichotomies being played out... but it's actually pretty simple.

    Everyone who can play jazz learns through very close, intimate connection to the music, usually by learning it by ear, and by. playing it with others as much as possible in some sort of scene or community. Some of them also know theory. (Most these days.) The problem only comes when people who don't realise this think the theory teaches the music. I feel this is especially a problem for those with some sort of STEM background.

    This is generally a conceptual problem for people who don't have contact with good professional jazz players and similarly motivated people to play with. These are things that Berklee, for example, continues to provide, and it does seem to have a very good track record of adding value to players, not merely acting as a gateway for the best.

    This is why good players who know zero theory no longer surprise me, because regardless of whether you know the names of things you always learn the same way; listening, playing and being in touch with a community of players who play this stuff a LOT. This is as true for Kurt Rosenwinkel or Pat Metheny as it is of Birelli or Django - they all learned to play outside of music college, notwithstanding that Pat and Kurt know the names of all the modes etc. This shit simply doesn't matter as much as people think, although it is convenient to have names/labels for things.

    If you've been doing the theory route for a while and you aren't happy with your playing, for instance, this is the one piece of advice you could benefit from. For some it may be easier than others, but time spent listening to and working out music by ear is always money in the bank, even if it's hard to find other players in your area.
    My view: Theory is an attempt to describe (note: not explain) what has been or is being done with the fundamental bits of music - the notes, their pitches, duration, inflection, attack, decay, volume, etc.etc. We do this with words. Man is the Naming Animal. We classify. And expound. 'Cuz we can.

    Jazz, on the other hand, is about doing something new/novel/fresh/stimulating/shocking at will - ad hoc, ad lib - that still relates to the structures of music as it has been heard and yet takes those structure into fresh territory. There is no need to explain it. It Just Is. The intent is to surprise and and delight, or at least amuse - I mean there is so much cooly organized and well-composed music already that the most indefatigable listener can never hear it all - jazz has got to be hot stuff to be worthy of the listener's time!

    No pressure. Perhaps one has to be a little off to even attempt it. That would explain a lot.

  17. #41

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    As far as I know, all my friends who attended Berklee really appreciate the years spent there.

  18. #42

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    Nowadays it is easier to get to know jazz for those who are interested in-just search on the Internet.
    It used to be more complicated.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    So, non-music majors think that "music school = theory"? That's kind of pathetic really. It's certainly utterly and completely incorrect, and that is a fact, not an opinion.

    Out of one side of the mouth we hear "music school won't turn a garage band kid into George Benson in 4 years, so it's not worth it".

    Out of the other side of the mouth we hear "well that guy could play before he got there, so it's not worth it".

    The only thing that we can take away from such a point of view is that music school is not worth a person's time - even though they intend to spend their life as a musician (and music teacher, if we're to be honest). So sayeth the folks who decided NOT to be musicians, or music majors.

    The problem of course is lack of expertise. To become an expert at something, one has to do it. One does not become an expert at something by NOT doing it.

    Next up, let's hear what people who never went to fill-in-the-blank school think about fill-in-the-blank school. On second thought, let's not.

    So, how 'bout them L5s eh? They sure are overpriced! It's not fair that Gibson charges so much because that means I can't have one! Poor me.
    You constantly brag about being a music major but just to clarify, based on your past statements, you actually do not have a music degree right? You took classes or dropped out after a year or something right? I took classes from jazz performance program when I was doing another degree. I don't think it's anything to brag about. Even having a music degree itself isn't anything to brag about either based on some of the music majors I know.
    I don't think having a degree in music means one is a "expert" in music nor not having a music degree means one is not. There is a lot more to it than that.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 11-29-2021 at 03:01 PM.

  20. #44

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    There's a lot of available info, that's for sure. But how does one seperate the wheat from the chaff?

    The best authors' books and other materials are still better, IMO.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    There's a lot of available info, that's for sure. But how does one seperate the wheat from the chaff?

    The best authors' books and other materials are still better, IMO.
    You're 100% right.
    That's why I have a whole jazz books wardrobe.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    You constantly brag about being a music major but just to clarify, based on your past statements, you actually do not have a music degree, right? You took classes or dropped out after a year or something right? I took classes from jazz performance program when I was doing another degree. I don't think it's anything to brag about. Even having a music degree itself isn't anything to brag about either based on some of the music majors I know.
    I don't think having a degree in music means one is a "expert" in music nor not having a music degree means one is not. There is a lot more to it than that.
    Absurd. Who would "brag" about being a music major? And correct, no degree, I changed, but after a number of years invested. In recent years I've gone back - for fun.

    Like lobomov you are confusing my comments and reading things in that I didn't say, but it's not worth explaining it to you Tal. You wouldn't listen to me or try to really understand my simple comments in good faith - because you know I'm not a socialist.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    You constantly brag about being a music major but just to clarify, based on your past statements, you actually do not have a music degree, right? You took classes or dropped out after a year or something right? I took classes from jazz performance program when I was doing another degree. I don't think it's anything to brag about. Even having a music degree itself isn't anything to brag about either based on some of the music majors I know.
    I don't think having a degree in music means one is a "expert" in music nor not having a music degree means one is not. There is a lot more to it than that.
    It all depends on the specific field of music.
    To be an expert, you first need to be passionate.

  24. #48

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    Just to clarify, when I referred to expertise I was referring to expertise about music school, not music itself. I was referring to people adjudging music school from afar - because they either majored in something else or nothing at all.

    It would be like a music major opining what it's like to go to engineering or business school. (I've heard a few do that BTW, and it's likewise pathetic).

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    You're 100% right.
    That's why I have a whole jazz books wardrobe.
    Me too, dumped a few recently to lighten my load. Didn't make a dent.

  26. #50

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    In fact, music schools, books, videos, jazz workshops are there to develop in playing.

    I used to run jazz workshops.There were really big differences in the levels of playing music.
    The most numerous group were people who never played jazz music.They would love to play jazz.
    The second group - people who knew maybe 2-3 standards ... but did not know the means of improvisation.
    There was also one person who played very well.
    Interestingly, almost all participants thought that during the two weeks of jazz workshops they would be playing jazz.
    Interesting experience.
    Really.