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  1. #26

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    I definitely won't master it in a week...but this deep dive into it has been great for my ears.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    That's kind of exactly it, I think, Kris. Playing changes on this stuff isn't the answer.

    I'm clearing some time today to listen closer to people's versions so far...from what I've heard on every version so far (mine included) i hear that struggle to want to make it a standard jazz tune...that track doesn't really help, its too "standard swinging" for this tune...sunnybass has a track, but im not sure i can do this one without hearing some chords...maybe I'll try.
    But that's why I slowed it all down, like Wayne's own version, see vid above. I don't think it's 'swingy' at all, quite the contrary.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    But that's why I slowed it all down, like Wayne's own version, see vid above. I don't think it's 'swingy' at all, quite the contrary.
    I'm referring specifically to the lone YouTube track I found for this one.

  5. #29

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    I know. I found one too but didn't use it, it was too fast.

    But I think there is an underlying swing to it, but very gentle.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    This is Wayne's own version. Much better soloing than on the Miles version. I thought they hadn't really got it together on that one.

    By the way this isn’t Wayne Shorter, it’s played by a guy called Carlo Muscat (he uploaded it).

    He says so in the comments, although it would have made more sense to mention it in the description.

  7. #31

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    Aaagh! You're right! Sorry. It did sound just like Wayne, didn't it? Well, nice job then! Well done, Carlo!

    It's very unclear. There's a link to another vid with John Coltrane all over it. Never mind, they're Italian, you know :-)

    Thank you. Well spotted!

  8. #32

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    The most challenging tune so far, in my opinion. Very hard to hear.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Aaagh! You're right! Sorry. It did sound just like Wayne, didn't it? Well, nice job then! Well done, Carlo!

    It's very unclear. There's a link to another vid with John Coltrane all over it. Never mind, they're Italian, you know :-)

    Thank you. Well spotted!
    Yes he’s a good player. I just thought it was a bit odd, it sounded like a modern recording but the playing is much less ‘abstract’ than how Wayne plays these days. So I was trying to see who was in the group, and found it in the comments.

  10. #34

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  11. #35

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    I don't know if there is any version of Iris recorded by a famous guitarist on CD.
    does anyone know?
    I don't remember any musician proposing to play Iris for real jam.
    Perhaps it is too sad and too difficult or sad that it is so difficult.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    The most challenging tune so far, in my opinion. Very hard to hear.
    Note that Wayne Shorter uses the melody a lot in his solo, that’s a useful ‘way in’ to approaching this tune, certainly for me.

    It’s also confusing on the record that during the solos, they mess about with the form, they make it 25 bars by repeating 8 bars at twice the harmonic rate (i.e. the same chords repeated twice as fast) then add an extra bar. I never noticed this until I read an analysis of the tune recently.

    Might explain why the solos are kind of hard to follow in places, compared to the chord changes given in the fakebooks.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Yes, I chose it, not just because of the exquisite melody, but because the harmonies are so interesting.

    I'm probably getting a bit obsessive now but here's one of my awful videos wot I just done. It's sort of in and out at the same time. I did something I'm quite proud of by mistake. I played a Gm triad over both the EM7#11 and the GbM7#11. Over the E it's bluesy, over the Gb it's Lydian. Good mistake!

    I'll hold back on the posts now, it's getting too much...

    It’s confounding. Even listening to your nice take, my ear tricks itself into hearing resolutions that I don’t think are actually there.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    It’s confounding. Even listening to your nice take, my ear tricks itself into hearing resolutions that I don’t think are actually there.
    Sorry, big answer coming up in case it's necessary/useful. Otherwise ignore.

    -------------------

    There's only one real resolution, as it were. That's the Db7 - Cm (bars 11 -12). It goes Cm - % - Db7 - Cm. The Db7 is the tritone of G7, so it's a V-i.

    The rest of the chords (as I see it) are basically stand-alone and have to be done one at a time. That's why I slowed it down so much and played it rubato. I think at one point I did play something a little swingy over 11 and 12 because... it's familiar.

    Possibly a mad theorist could come up with smart ways to connect all the chords but I wouldn't bore myself trying. There's no real connection between Fm, E, Gb, Bb7, and so on. And I don't think there's meant to be.

    Answer: don't think in terms of traditional connections and resolutions. Just do it one at a time because that's all you've got. I know that contradicts all the advice that's generally offered but there we are.

    Then just swallow your CST pride... Big info dump coming up if you want it.

    -----------------------

    Fm = Fm (aeolian or dorian, help yourself. I prefer the m6 sound with the natural D)

    EM7#11 - GbM7#11 = B maj - Db maj. Or, much better, Ebm - Fm (like Bm over CM7#11, the lydian sound). Easy to play too.


    Bb7+ = Eb mel m (Bb7 is V of Ebm)

    Db7#11 = Ab mel m (lyd dom)

    AbM7#5 = I just play C but F mel m contains the natural E note. C is easier.



    Then the Cm bars. I prefer the m6 sound because it suits but C harm m is okay.

    Db7#11 as before.

    That Dbmb6 is odd. I just go for Dbm, myself. Simpler. Or a B maj scale.

    ---------------------

    The chords are going by so, unlike most modal tunes, there's not really enough time to give any one scale/mode a workout. It's more a question of trying to join the dots as best one can.

    There are always other options for the harmonies but these work well enough. I peeked at cheat sheets till I'd got the idea then just let loose. Ultimately not as scary as it looks.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Sorry, big answer coming up in case it's necessary/useful. Otherwise ignore.

    -------------------

    There's only one real resolution, as it were. That's the Db7 - Cm (bars 11 -12). It goes Cm - % - Db7 - Cm. The Db7 is the tritone of G7, so it's a V-i.

    The rest of the chords (as I see it) are basically stand-alone and have to be done one at a time. That's why I slowed it down so much and played it rubato. I think at one point I did play something a little swingy over 11 and 12 because... it's familiar.

    Possibly a mad theorist could come up with smart ways to connect all the chords but I wouldn't bore myself trying. There's no real connection between Fm, E, Gb, Bb7, and so on. And I don't think there's meant to be.

    Answer: don't think in terms of traditional connections and resolutions. Just do it one at a time because that's all you've got. I know that contradicts all the advice that's generally offered but there we are.

    Then just swallow your CST pride... Big info dump coming up if you want it.

    -----------------------

    Fm = Fm (aeolian or dorian, help yourself. I prefer the m6 sound with the natural D)

    EM7#11 - GbM7#11 = B maj - Gb maj. Or, much better, Ebm - Fm (like Bm over CM7#11, the lydian sound). Easy to play too.


    Bb7+ = Eb mel m (Bb7 is V of Ebm)

    Db7#11 = Ab mel m (lyd dom)

    AbM7#5 = I just play C but F mel m contains the natural E note. C is easier.



    Then the Cm bars. I prefer the m6 sound because it suits but C harm m is okay.

    Db7#11 as before.

    That Dbmb6 is odd. I just go for Dbm, myself. Simpler. Or a B maj scale.

    ---------------------

    The chords are going by so, unlike most modal tunes, there's not really enough time to give any one scale/mode a workout. It's more a question of trying to join the dots as best one can.

    There are always other options for the harmonies but these work well enough. I peeked at cheat sheets till I'd got the idea then just let loose. Ultimately not as scary as it looks.
    In my brief attempts to hear and understand this last night, I was thinking of the M7#11 chords as minor chords: for example, with this voicing of EM7#11:

    XX9896

    you get an Ab minor triad with a 9. I’ve been doing some focused melodic minor practice after a lesson, and this seems like it *might* be an approach to hang my hat on.JGBE Virtual Jam  (Round 40) - Iris
    Last edited by wzpgsr; 10-17-2021 at 08:52 PM.

  16. #40

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    But its an Abmaj7#5...

    Which is just C/Ab

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    XX9896
    I just broke my wrist trying to get that!

    AbM7#11
    As Jeff said, that's really AbM7#5.

    (4x555x)

  18. #42

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    Ha! That’s what happens when the knucklehead tries to get theoretical. I have removed my bad analysis and enrolled in a reading comprehension course.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    Nope. "Her and me" is correct. Take "her" out of the sentence for a moment, and it's clear. You wouldn't say "glimpse of I." This is a common point of confusion. You say "me and her went to the store," and your mother corrects you with "she and I," but that only applies to the subject of a sentence, not the object.
    Glory to God. One surviving grammarian in this lost and barren world.

    My hat is off to you. Me vs. I. The last frontier of civilized grammar!

  20. #44

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    I think someone asked if there were any professional recordings by guitarists about. I couldn't find any on YouTube but there was one on Spotify by Menconi. I've posted it myself on YT.


  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    That's what I said. You jumped too quickly :-)

    (He didn't say you and me because he got the grammar right)
    No, saying "you and I" in that context is incorrect grammatically. In context, it's two personal pronouns that are the object of the preposition "of". "Me" is the first person object pronoun, not "I". Correcting it with "we" would also be wrong; "us" would be correct.

    Anyway, on to the musical discussion where I have a great deal to say ... not. My approach was to watch the thirds (mostly avoid them) and fifths (mostly alter them), not worry about the other note choices, and do focus on motif, phrasing, dynamics, and texture. I probably got it mostly wrong, but I wasn't in the mood to go through a detailed analysis and plan.

    On the Miles version, that's how the solos feel like they were conceived to me (i.e., more intuitive than analytic). I did do a few passes where I was more explicitly arpeggiating the changes and playing chords, but that sounded exercises, so decided to kind of turn off my brain and blow.
    Last edited by John A.; 10-18-2021 at 08:25 AM.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    It is a beautiful recording in the spirit of W.Shorter's music.
    David Liebman is a jazz master.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by John A.
    No, saying "you and I" in that context is incorrect grammatically. In context, it's two personal pronouns that are the object of the preposition "of". "Me" is the first person object pronoun, not "I". Correcting it with "we" would also be wrong; "us" would be correct.
    You're quite right, of course, and I knew it at the time. For some reason I got my head scrambled and turned it round, god knows how. At least if I mess up I do it in style! Sorry :-)

    That's the second big mistake I've made on this thread. Unusual. I blame it on trying to work out Iris too much. If I can't get simple grammar right then god knows what else I'm getting wrong.

    Anyway, on to the musical discussion where I have a great deal to say ... not. My approach was to watch the thirds (mostly avoid them) and fifths (mostly alter them), not worry about the other note choices, and do focus on motif, phrasing, dynamics, and texture. I probably got it mostly wrong, but I wasn't in the mood to go through a detailed analysis and plan
    .

    Sounds okay to me (but check me, you never know!).

    On the Miles version, that's how the solos feel like they were conceived to me (i.e., more intuitive than analytic). I did do a few passes where I was more explicitly arpeggiating the changes and playing chords, but that sounded exercises, so decided to kind of turn off my brain and blow.
    Quite so.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I think someone asked if there were any professional recordings by guitarists about. I couldn't find any on YouTube but there was one on Spotify by Menconi. I've posted it myself on YT.

    Yes, I asked about it .
    It's great that you posted this.
    Thanks.
    I can hear in this performance the great technical skill of the guitarist and the whole band.
    I am so close to the version of Shorter from the M.Davis ESP album that I have the impression that Iris was written by Shorter for Shorter.
    If you could find one more guitar version for comparison, that would be great.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by kris
    Sometimes I get the impression that this is a cruise on a small passenger ship called 'Iris'.
    The captain is unaware that there is a huge iceberg in front of him.
    I already know it from somewhere.
    The saddest thing is that someone forgot to take the lifeboats and lifebuoys on a cruise.
    .......................................
    There are so many beautiful songs played in a jam sessions.
    Jam session should be fun and fun for everyone.
    Choosing the right song is essential !!!
    I don't know if I broke any JGBE rules in writing this.
    But to quote : "someone must have said it at last."
    You could take a Shorter tune like "Iris" or two, Tony Williams' "Pee Wee," maybe a few others, and study those for a LIFETIME.

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    You could take a Shorter tune like "Iris" or two, Tony Williams' "Pee Wee," maybe a few others, and study those for a LIFETIME.
    The problem is that human life is too short.
    I love songs with one or two or three chords.
    I'm kidding of course, but there is something to it.